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nigelj at 06:10 AM on 18 November 2017“Toasted, roasted and grilled” or already over the hump?
Digby Scorgie
I think you have the picture right on relationship of the keeling curve to emissions. It's complicated, and I have been asking myself similar questions.
Regarding change in attitude. You are from New Zealand, did you read that Listener article on rise of ethical businsesses? Link below:
www.magzter.com/preview/13970/250663#page/1
This is business that has multiple goals, profit plus environment, ethics, employment practices etc.
Attitudes to business ethics and environmental concerns are also slowly changing, from what I have read. Young people are wanting better ethics in business and environmental standards, and it appears more than just teenage idealism. But I think it will be a slow process, especially once mortgage has to be paid! But it absolutely has to change because the alternatives are unthinkable.
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ranger001 at 06:04 AM on 18 November 20172017 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #45
Can someone point me to any articles that says what is likely to happen if the world continues pretty much the same with the US not changing its stance appreciably? Something like ice caps will melt in year 20xx, etc.
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Thiristaer at 06:01 AM on 18 November 2017New research, November 6-12, 2017
Love the first article about nitrogen. Perfect rebuttal to the “CO2 is plant food” arguement.
After all, isn’t saying CO2 is plant food equivalent to saying O2 is people “food??”
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nigelj at 05:48 AM on 18 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Lachlan @19
I have not seen the "Incovenient Truth" movie. From what you say it does politicise the issue, which is unfortunate. However the material on Gores personal background may have been inserted to add human interest aspect.
I just can't recall the book politicising the issue. I dont think it mentioned Gores background, and it was a relatively short book and large parts were illustrations.
However few writers are going to be politically totally neutral people. Most people have some political leaning. I just wish people would just look at what Gores says, and forget that he is a Democrat. I'm happy to listen to Conservatives views on climate change, and I might disagree, but not because they are "conservatives".
You said you wonder if the movie did more harm than good. I haven't seen any study on this. However I suggest it probably did more good than harm at outside America, because wouldn't really care about Gores statements on his political and personal background.
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nigelj at 05:28 AM on 18 November 2017California’s new law aims to tackle imported emissions
Drivingby @2
I agree China is empire building, but no more or less so than America, Russia etc. China is concerned to secure food security, and will essentially colonise other peoples economies to do this. This is where countries need to be on guard.
But China is towards benign end of spectrum on empire building, and hostility to china is counter productive. Like other person says China deserve some respect, and trade problems and other economic problems like predatory colonising practices should be dealt with through rule of law which has mechanisms to deal with this sort of thing. In other words be critical of what China does , but dont demonise them.
"If the population is displaced from either their home or their work, they will reject any environmental concerns beyond garbage hauling and drinking water"
You would think so, but its higher educated and higher income people that are more sceptical of climate change and resistant to carbon taxes and so on, from article I read about America. Much to my surprise.
The article didn't give reasons, but perhaps poor people have a certain fatalism, or more acceptance of what science says without much question. Of course if people are truly destitute, with no job then it might be different, and survival might over ride any environmental concerns, but who knows? We might be surprised.
Poor people tend to give a larger proportion of their income to charity than rich. The world is a complex peculiar place, which is why its important to look at political issues through lens of science and evidence, and avoid assumptions and urban myths.
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One Planet Only Forever at 04:51 AM on 18 November 2017“Toasted, roasted and grilled” or already over the hump?
Digby Scorgie@19,
The change of attitude I mentioned is nothing new. It has been an established understanding of Global Leadership for decades. It was formally stated as a part of Kyoto. And is a stated part of the Paris Agreement. It is the parts that trouble-makers accuse of being "Globilist Wealth Grabs" or "Globalist Wealth Transfers".
Global better understanding about how to sustainably improve the future for all of humanity has continued to strengthen in spite of regional short-term variations down from the mean (like global average surface temperature, it is the long term trend that matters).
So it is only a matter of time before the understanding becomes powerful enough to over-rule the pursuers of Private Interests who try to get away with things that are contrary to that understanding, not if it ever will become that powerful.
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aleks at 02:02 AM on 18 November 2017What do Jellyfish teach us about climate change?
Nigelj@8, please note that acidity is determined by the concentration of hydrogen ions only, not by molecules of substances. Properties of CO2, NO2, and SO2 that produce H+ in water solutions are quite different. a) CO2 has a relatively small solubility depending on partial pressure, temperature, and water salinity. At 25oC solubility in g/kg water is 1.5 for CO2, ~90 for SO2 . NO2 reacts with water forming HNO2 and HNO3 .
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gases-solubility-water-d_1148.htmlN b)The main forms of CO 2 are CO2 (aq) and H2CO3 , at that the first one prevails: amount of carbonic acid is about 1000 times less than total amount of dissolved CO2 (link in the post 6, p.20). SO2 and NO2 completely convert into corresponding acids, and sulfite and nitrite ions oxidize to sulfate and nitrate, so eventually we get strong acids H2SO4 and HNO3..
I'd like to make comparative calculation. Let's pretend that above mentioned 1.5 g CO2 fell into the water only as a result of burning coal and found corresponding amounts of sulfur and nitrogen oxides (it's acceptable because crude oil also contains sulfur and nitrogen). The average content of C, N, and S in coal can be estimated from the data in the following link (pp. 117-118) as C 85, N 1,5, S 1 (mass.%).
https://www.ems.psu.edu/~radovic/Chapter7.pdf
Assuming that the mole ratio of substances in the combustion products corresponds to the ratio C: N : S in the coal, it could be found that together 34 mmole CO2 (from 1.5g), 0.52 mmole NO2 and 0.15 mmole SO2 are formed. Because SO2 and NO2 convert completely to strong acids, total H+ amount would be 0.67 mmole (for H2SO4 only the first dissociation step is taken into account). Amount of H+ from carbonic acid could be found from its concentration (34 mmole/kg) and dissociation constant 4.3* 10-7. Even neglecting above mentioned note that H2CO3 concentration is many times less than total [CO2(aq)] , we find the value of H+ from CO 2 of 0.12 mmol. So, even very simplified calculation shows that SO2 and NO2 produce much more acidity than CO2 .
Please note that your link is about composition of dry air while SO2 and NO2 almost completely absorbed by air moisture. -
Delton11557 at 01:36 AM on 18 November 2017California’s new law aims to tackle imported emissions
For Driving By: One point about China you overlook is that one of the most important things the Chinese people are currently demanding is cleaner skies. China now has many citizens wealthy enough to travel and the thing that catches their eye in the U.S., for example, is blue skies. They know they are breathing dirty air back home and they don't like it. Say what one will about the Chinese political system, when they decide to do something, they can muster the entire country to get behind the project. We should speak of the Chinese with respect and vital partners in the effort to reduce our carbon emissions.
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DrivingBy at 00:53 AM on 18 November 2017California’s new law aims to tackle imported emissions
Let's just keep borrowing from China and shipping industry, technology and expertise to China and India. At some point, the only country we'll be able to buy bulk steel from will be China, because they'll be the only ones able/willing to loan US municipalities drowning in debt more funds. When asked about environmental issues, they'll just laugh (silently), add 50% to the next project, and use those funds to buy the local politicians.
Crazy? China and Russia are on track to own Venezuela. Should VZ leaders attempt to flip off those two powers, they'll find that their term in office mysteriously ends in a show trial. Those two powers may sometimes grasp more than they can hold, but without the US as a counterweight one is unlikely to escape their 'friendship'. China has been playing empire for several thousands years and are itching to get back in the game.
Attention to the environment is only possible with a sound economy. If the population is displaced from either their home or their work, they will reject any environmental concerns beyond garbage hauling and drinking water, and in some places they don't bother much about garbage.
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Digby Scorgie at 16:47 PM on 17 November 2017“Toasted, roasted and grilled” or already over the hump?
OPOF @18
Yes, but you are in effect asking for a change in attitude that, regrettably, is unlikely to occur. But time will tell.
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Lachlan at 15:30 PM on 17 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Bob Loblaw @16: Well done finding tht data.
You talk of "where the credibility gap lies", but I don't think you can blame Tom13. The NOAA is a reputable source, and the data sets for most of the Florida points finish at 2016 (also spanning 4-10 decades), and give rates of change in the same ball-park as the old Miami data. It doesn't look to me like he was deliberately cherry-picking — just misled by an unclear site, and being genuinely skeptical as this site encourages :)
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Lachlan at 14:29 PM on 17 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
I forgot to add that my comment #19 doesn't mean that I think the Republicans aren't also politicising climate change. They're doing it deliberately and unscrupulously, whereas I think Gore did it carelessly at worst.
Also, I'm not saying that the harm done by politicisng the issue outweighs the good he did by raising awareness. I don't know enough to have even an opinion on that.
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Lachlan at 14:22 PM on 17 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
The movie "An Inconvenient Truth" did certainly politicise the issue — not just because Al Gore was a former politician. It discussed the details of how he lost the presidential election. Even though I think he should have won the election, those interludes made me cringe. Those who think he deserved to lose would have been outraged by them and distracted from the key message.
If the election had been fought on the issue of climate change, then the political comments would have been justified, although possibly unwise. However, public awareness of climate change was low until An Inconvenient Truth itself was released, and so I don't see how it could have been a major election issue (though I wasn't there).
The movie also focused more on Al Gore himself than was necessary. I remember there were scenes discussing the fact that his parents were tobacco farmers. So what? He may have been making a subtle point about the need to change industries, or similarities between the tobacco industry and the fossil fuel industry, but it isn't central to the issue and creates an impression of self-aggrandisement.
I haven't read the book, and so perhaps these criticisms don't apply to it — but applying to the movie is enough to justify the claims that he politicised the issue.
$0.02
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nigelj at 13:15 PM on 17 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Bob Loblaw @16, thanks. I struggled to find time periods as well. I clicked on the trend data for the gulf of mexico area, and it said data was for 40 years. I just assumed it was last 40 years. Not the clearest of websites.
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Bob Loblaw at 12:47 PM on 17 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
RickG @10.
Interesting factoid.Thanks for bringing it up.
Water in the atmosphere can be in two forms: vapour, or clouds (liquid or ice). The vapour portion is often referred to as "precipitable water" - the total amount from the surface to the top of the atmosphere, expressed as a depth of liquid water (i.e., how much rain would fall if it all condensed and rained out).
A quick search for "precipitable water global map" led me to this nice page:
http://www.eldoradocountyweather.com/climate/world-maps/world-precipitable-water.html
which includes a nice map of NOAA origin:
To get a larger version, go to the link above. I think the numbers are consistent with RickG's source.
One thing that is very apparent is that the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere is a strong function of temperature. I'll need to keep such a map in mind next time I am trying to point out that water vapour can't act as a forcing on climate - just a feedback.
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Bob Loblaw at 12:16 PM on 17 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
nigelj: "This data is an average for last 40 years!"
Actually, nigel, that statement is not quite correct. I looked at Tom13's link and saw the numbers, and did quite a bit of searching to try to find out what time period was being used. It's not easy to find.
If you click on the Home/Map link on the left side of Tom's page (just under "Sea Level Trends"), you get to this URL:
https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends.html
If you zoom in on the map to S Florida, you can click on Miami and get details. A balloon pops up with the following text:
The mean sea level trend is 2.39 mm/year with a 95% confidence interval of +/- 0.43 mm/year based on monthly mean sea level data from 1931 to 1981 which is equivalent to a change of 0.78 feet in 100 years.
(Bolding added.)
You're right about it being over a period of 40 years, but the period ended almost 40 years ago.
I think I can tell where the true credibility gap lies.
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IanH at 12:09 PM on 17 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
I seldom post comments but was moved to do so today after reading this article. Many thanks to John Abraham for such an excellent review.
Last night our Swanpool Landcare group funded a free screening of 'An Inconvenient Sequel' at the Swanpool Cinema (Vic, Australia). We were pleased with the attendance and the lively discussions over supper which followed. The same AMSL graph as in the Moderator's Response was used in our opening slides and accompanying short film clips before the main feature reflected the current Australian political response (or lack thereof), with an emphasis on sea level rise.
There is a considerable amount of debate about what the mean sea level rise might be by 2100 but I choose to look at it another way. With CO2 levels still rising inexorably a two metre or more rise is inevitable and it is just the timing that is uncertain. The Greenland icecap footage in the film just supports this view. Should our response be any different if a two metre rise occurs a few years earlier or later than 2100?
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ubrew12 at 10:32 AM on 17 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
It is well known and undeniable that, repeatedly, when CO2 levels fell to 100ppm below pre-industrial (i.e. from 280ppm to 180ppm), sea level was 200 feet below present. How hard is it to fathom that going from pre-industrial (280ppm) to 500ppm or higher will raise sea level by 10 feet or so? (the actual estimate is ~75 feet, eventually). Someone needs to tell me how sea level can be so sensitive to CO2 in the past but so completely insensitive today. Did we melt all the ice caps in the last interglacial transition? If we didn't, then expect sea levels to rise today. A lot. This is not rocket science.
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nigelj at 06:29 AM on 17 November 2017California’s new law aims to tackle imported emissions
Since Donald Trump is worried about trade deficit with China, dumping, and unfair competition, if he adopted this imports rule on high carbon content items for America as a whole, he would help solve both the trade problem and climate problem. Of course Trump needs to go futher with federal level policies to reduce emissions.
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nigelj at 06:04 AM on 17 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Tom13 @12
"NOAA is only 2.39mm MSL rise for miami beach, 2.32mm MSL rise per year for Daytona beach, FL."
This data is an average for last 40 years! The source I quoted is over last decade where rate has increased to about 8.4mm year. The article I posted quite clearly had graph of data.
"Can someone provide a credible estimate as to when 26mm per year will be reached - with the emphasis on credible."
The last IPCC report predicted global average sea level rise will increase to approx. 1 metre by 2100, worse case with increasing emissions, following quadratic curve.
Please note IPCC estimates are conservative, with some science now suggesting more than 1 metre is very feasible as global average.
Florida is possibly extreme case, as sea level rise adds to local conditions and land subsidence etc to make 2 meters possible.
I have no interest in whether your gut feeling on this is "credible" or not, only whether you provide solid evidence otherwise.
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One Planet Only Forever at 04:22 AM on 17 November 2017“Toasted, roasted and grilled” or already over the hump?
Digby Scorgie@17,
Yes.
The only clarification is that human activities other than burning fossil fuels affect CO2 levels in the atmosphere. And changes of major activities like agriculture and forest management can increase/reduce the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.
So if the 'net' impact of human activity, not restricted to emissions, is zero then the natural aspects of the environmental system would reduce the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere.
And I understand and agree with your initial point about getting back down to 350 ppm. Human activity to achieve that result is required, not just terminating the negative impacts on CO2 levels before their accumulation would produce a 2.0 C increase of global average surface temperatures. More is required than just changing the games people play to effectively limit what humans are able to get away with so that global 'net-zero carbon' activity is achieved).
The 'charitable/not-for-profit/tax-subsidized' efforts to reduce CO2 to 350 ppm need to start today and be paid for by the people who benefited the most from the past burning of fossil fuels and by any more fortunate person who still tries to personally benefit from the activity. That means the more fortunate need to be getting 'net-zero-benefit' from the burning of fossil fuels and they need to be net-positive for the future of humanity, meaning making personal sacrifice to be net-negative regarding CO2. Any portion of their fortune that came from the past burning of fossil fuels should be expected to be charitably reducing global CO2 impacts (no personal benefit obtained - other than recognition for finally responsibly considerately making amends). Most of them would still be significantly more fortunate than average and they all would become more deserving of being more fortunate than others.
That developing understanding of the required changes fuelled by improved understanding of climate science, particularly the significant required changes by many of the 'currently perceived to be' most fortunate, is a major motivation for the attacks on climate science fuelling efforts for secrecy, excuse-making and manipulation rather than increased honesty, raising awareness and education.
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Tom13 at 03:08 AM on 17 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/northwestatlantictrends.htm
NOAA is only 2.39mm MSL rise for miami beach, 2.32mm MSL rise per year for Daytona beach, FL.
Nigelj is citing 8.4mm per year.
The NOAA data should be a better gauge of whether a jump to 26.mm per year is even remotely likely. keep in mind that in order to reach 7 feet, the rate of sea level increase has to be 26mm per year for 82 years straight. Can someone provide a credible estimate as to when 26mm per year will be reached - with the emphasis on credible.
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John Hartz at 02:39 AM on 17 November 2017On climate and global leadership, it's America Last until 2020
Recommended supplemental reading:
Singing activists interrupt U.S. coal-focused event at United Nations climate conference by Chris Mooney, Energy & Environment, Washington Post, Nov 13, 2017
In Bonn, Trump’s Answer to Global Warming? Drill, Baby, Drill! by Elizabeth Kolbert, Daily Comment, The New Yorker, Nov 15, 2017
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Digby Scorgie at 18:35 PM on 16 November 2017“Toasted, roasted and grilled” or already over the hump?
OPOF et al
By inertia I mean the delay following a change while the planet reaches a new equilibrium. So I understand that bit.
As for feedbacks, to me this implies a non-linear response to changes in GHGs.
I also understand that, without humans, there is a continuing interchange of GHGs between land, atmosphere and ocean. Add human emissions, and there will be a rebalancing of this interchange that will require some time.
I think the latter point is where gws @4 gets his "net" emissions.
I conclude that the Keeling curve will remain flat if our emissions are low enough for the planet to accommodate. But in accordance with IPCC Chapter 6, if our emissions really are zero, the Keeling curve will be declining.
Have I got that right?
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nigelj at 17:34 PM on 16 November 2017On climate and global leadership, it's America Last until 2020
The following article shows how America has had large net benefits from free trade, but also some of the problems with free trade, so is a balanced article:
www.uschamber.com/sites/default/files/open_door_trade_report.pdf
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nigelj at 17:17 PM on 16 November 2017On climate and global leadership, it's America Last until 2020
Donald Trump needs to stop complaining about trade with China. There are two sides to the trade equation. First side is America may have lost some jobs to china, but second side is America gains a vast number of cheap imported consumer products. The benefits of open trade outweigh the costs.
Where Trump may have some case is problems like dumping, hidden subsidies, etc. But he should keep to specific problems like this.
Bernie Sanders is a good honest intellectually clever man, but possibly too leftist for delicate American sensibilities. I suggest Democrats find someone bright, middle of road, charismatic, with no skeletons in the closet, and who stores emails in the right place.
Obama was on right track with his approach to climate change. Get back to his approach.
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Phil Glynn at 16:14 PM on 16 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Thank you RickG that is very interesting. So the increase of water vapour to date through global warming may have reduced potential sea level rise by a few mm's.
Thanks for link also.
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RickG at 12:37 PM on 16 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Phil @7, According to the USGS if all the water in the atmosphere were to rain out at once, it would cover the earth with about an inch of water.
https://water.usgs.gov/edu/watercycleatmosphere.html
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NorrisM at 12:06 PM on 16 November 2017Sea level rise is exaggerated
MA Rodger @ 223
Thanks. The video helped. I guess I have to spend some time understanding regression analysis (it is not the first time this has come up). Generally, it seems that what you are really trying to do is determine the slope based upon the data. It was actually another YouTube video of McLoughlin (sp) that was more helpful.
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Eclectic at 12:04 PM on 16 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Sidd @8 , your point about the difference between "supralinear" versus "exponential" is a very obscure point (at least, to me — and I suspect, to many other readers as well).
Please clarify what you intend. In colloquial English [rather than in strict mathematical jargon] the term "exponential" seems a fair approximation for the increasing rate of sea-level rise which is occurring at present & in the coming decades.
Obviously, there is only a finite tonnage of ice-sheets, so the long-term sea-level rise cannot be truly exponential for millennia. Much of the East Antarctica Ice Sheet will persist for 1000+ years. But the melting of Greenland ice & WAIS . . . could produce a general sea-level rise of about 50 feet by year 2200. And possibly the rise would be higher. All rather uncertain, of course. But none of it looks "good for us".
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sidd at 09:49 AM on 16 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
That SLR graph shows that the rate of SLR is supralinear. But I would not say it is yet evidence for an exponential rise.
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John Hartz at 09:20 AM on 16 November 2017Sea level rise is exaggerated
This just in....
New York City has plenty to worry about from sea level rise. But according to a new study by NASA researchers, it should worry specifically about two major glacier systems in Greenland’s northeast and northwest — but not so much about other parts of the vast northern ice sheet.
The research draws on a curious and counterintuitive insight that sea level researchers have emphasized in recent years: As ocean levels rise around the globe, they will not do so evenly. Rather, because of the enormous scale of the ice masses that are melting and feeding the oceans, there will be gravitational effects and even subtle effects on the crust and rotation of the Earth. This, in turn, will leave behind a particular “fingerprint” of sea level rise, depending on when and precisely which parts of Greenland or Antarctica collapse.
Now, Eric Larour, Erik Ivins and Surendra Adhikari of NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory have teased out one fascinating implication of this finding: Different cities should fear the collapse of different large glaciers.
These are the melting glaciers that might someday drown your city, according to NASA by Chris Mooney, Energy & Environment, Washington Post, Nov 15, 2017
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MA Rodger at 09:02 AM on 16 November 2017Sea level rise is exaggerated
NorrisM @269.
If you examine my comments above about trends, I have been using the term OLS quite frequently. The term OLS is googleable and the acronym finders that act helpfully (ie not slang, street-speek, etc) all get it at the first, the first and first attempt. Even google's top suggestion is this wikithing page. However, as you are statistic-averse, this little video will tell you all you need to know.
And parallel cirves is not an issue. Likely it would simply suggest use of differing base periods.
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Phil Glynn at 07:18 AM on 16 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Does anybody know how much rate of sea level rise is affected by the increasing amount of water vapour in the atmosphere? If all the water vapour in the atmospere was to suddenly be returned to the ocean would this be negligible or noticeable?
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nigelj at 06:14 AM on 16 November 2017“Toasted, roasted and grilled” or already over the hump?
Digby Scorgie
"If the curve is flat, then what?"
I think this means our emissions have fallen low enough that all are absorbed by ocean and land sinks.
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nigelj at 06:02 AM on 16 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Tom13@3,
"There is also evidence that the large increase in the rate circa 1990-2015 is an artifact of the change in method of measurement from tide gauges to satellite. Keep in mind that rate of sea level rise based on tide gauges doesnt reflect the same exponential rate of rise."
The graph of sea level rise posted by moderator appears to have curve fitted showing acceleration over period 1990 - 2016. Please note change from tide gauges to satellite data happened about 1995 so might explain a sudden change around 1995, but it can't explain curve acceleration over the full period in the graph.
Satellite data is more accurate than tide gauges.
To repeat, the physics would also expect acceleration.
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nigelj at 05:39 AM on 16 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Tom13@3, you are forgetting that the basic physics would expect an acceleration.
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nigelj at 05:36 AM on 16 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Good article. So conservatives claim Al Gore politicised the issue. Yet his book An Inconvenient Truth discussed science, and didn't mention politics or even the key denialist arguments.
In all fairness and honesty he did write a book criticial of republican attitudes to science but this was a separte sort of thing coming well after an Inconvenient Truth. Gore has his faults, but IMO is mostly making the effort to be on the right side of science, and future well being of humanity. I have no right to expect more.
I think it's actually the Republicans and many conservative leaning people that tend to politicise climate change. Listen to their rhetoric and its some variation on liberal scam, a chinese conspiracy, a socialist scam, big government, nanny state, secret tax scheme, evil agenda 21, in a long predictable political rant mostly free of scientific awareness. Their claims are also nonsensical and unproven.
Sometimes its more subtle but the message is the same. But what is all that if its not politicising the issue?
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Tom13 at 05:32 AM on 16 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
DB] And yet evidence exists that recent SLR is exponential.
There is also evidence that the large increase in the rate circa 1990-2015 is an artifact of the change in method of measurement from tide gauges to satellite. Keep in mind that rate of sea level rise based on tide gauges doesnt reflect the same exponential rate of rise.
Moderator Response:[DB] "There is also evidence that the large increase in the rate circa 1990-2015 is an artifact of the change in method of measurement from tide gauges to satellite"
Citation, please.
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nigelj at 05:24 AM on 16 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Tom 13@1
"The current rate of sea level rise (in Florida) is only 3mm per year."
No in parts of Florida its currently approx. 8.4mm year:
sealevelrise.org/florida?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIw5SfhKDB1wIVgwsrCh0tbQTJEAAYASAAEgKXUfD_BwE
This is caused by a combination of factors including climate change, some localised change in the North Atlantic Ocean cycle which may be natural variability, or climate change related, and some land subsidence as well.
The climate change components are modelled to accelerate particularly after 2050, due to increasing rates of ice loss in Greenland etc. Put all those causal factors together and Florida could well have two metres of sea level rise by 2100. This is within our childrens lifetimes so is rapid, and the implications are severe.
Sea level rise in Florida is not all caused by climate change, but climate change is a major factor, and something that can be addressed.
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Philippe Chantreau at 04:59 AM on 16 November 2017Sea level rise is exaggerated
Lastly, this demonstrates generously why having lawyers run any kind of debate about physical reality is the worst idea. I have read enough of NorrisM contributions to see that calling it "one can have questions" is the best possible example of a misrepresentation.
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william5331 at 04:56 AM on 16 November 2017On climate and global leadership, it's America Last until 2020
The hope is that the back lash against Trump and his policies will send America penduluming in the other direction with a vengeance. It seems already to be happening. Perhaps if the Dems can be reformed, we could even get Bernie as the next president.
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Philippe Chantreau at 04:51 AM on 16 November 2017Sea level rise is exaggerated
It's becoming ever more dfficult to take NorrisM seriously. Euphemisms, half-assed language and all around BS have dug their way so deep in the culture that even their chief users get tangled in the rotten semantics with which they have flooded the world.
Here is the interesting argument that a misrepresentation is better than a lie. NorrisM, in a tremendous rethorical effort, throws a little analysis of why the word lie is mean because it implies intent to deceive, then goes on to misrepresetation as if it did not imply an intent to deceive. That is really funny. NorrisM is explaining to us that it is bad to tell lies because that's the crude way to do things; misrepresentations are much better because they don't readily open one up for being exposed as a fraud. A misrepresentation is a higher skilled sort of lie, it uses better language, it's what smart liers do. Yeah, misrepresentations are much better. So are deceptions, dissimulations and all manners of devious behaviors that can't be immediately pinned down for what they are. Way to go.
To summarize recent contributions, we've heard it's bad to try to intimidate others in the same post as we received litigation threats, and that misrepresentations are much better than lies. Impressive.
And that's not even counting all the objective stuff about hard data that has been covered by other contributors, who showed that there is no doubt about what is going with Koonin. We're flogging a dead horse here. I'm done.
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NorrisM at 04:28 AM on 16 November 2017Sea level rise is exaggerated
Eclectic @ 267
In Canadian law, we use various levels of the term "misrepresentation", moving from innocent misrepresentation to intentional misrepresentation to fraudulent misrepresentation. This last term, if proven, can put you in jail. It is the one which is equivalent to saying someone has lied.
Moderator. As I have noted before on this website, I never look at WUWT but I promise to do so on Curry's website if I ever see such a statement. If you want to point me to a recent instance on the Curry site, I am happy to go online and make the very same comment and then reference you to my comment.
I just hope everyone appreciates that someone can have questions they would like answered in the area of climate change and also think that what is happening in the US with the Republicans taking health care from millions of people to pay for their tax cuts to the rich is disgusting and raises real questions about the political process in the US. I suspect that Koonin (a Democat, I assume) is also disgusted with the Republicans on that issue. I just do not think people who have different views should be demonized. I think he has the best interests of the US public (you see I do not use the term "the American people") at heart but just has differing views of what that best interest is. I think it is perfectly acceptable for criticisms to be levelled at him as long as they do not go past what I have referred to as "intentional misrepresentation".
Moderator Response:[DB] Off-topic snipped.
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NorrisM at 04:08 AM on 16 November 2017Sea level rise is exaggerated
MA Rodger @ 268
By the use of the term "trend", I am assuming that you do not mean that you add the yearly increases over the period and divide by the number of years which would be the average. Is this a term in statistics? If so, could you point me to a "beginner" summary of statistics terms. I have to admit that I took one course in statistics at university but it was my least favourite subject and that was a long time ago. I get standard deviation and bell curves but suspect that "trend" is a statistical analysis and does not refer to the simple average.
As for my comment on the different rates for satellites and tide gauge, I do not think it was "nonsensical", in that Eclectic understood what I was getting at. What I was saying is that you could have two different measurments of sea level rise but the curves are parallel. Just one above the other in measurements of y axis.
Moderator Response:[DB] Sloganeering snipped.
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Tom13 at 03:02 AM on 16 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
From the 8th paragraph of the article -
For instance, South Florida may see 7 feet of sea level rise by 2100. City planners are considering ways to raise parts of the city to deal with this. Oh by the way, yes the best evidence shows we really may get 7 feet by 2100.
7 feet equals 2,134mm. In order to reach 2,134mm in 84, the annual rate of sea level rise needs to be 26mm per year. The current rate of sea level rise is only 3mm per year.
Moderator Response:[DB] And yet evidence exists that recent SLR is exponential.
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PluviAL at 02:50 AM on 16 November 2017Analysis: Global CO2 emissions set to rise 2% in 2017 after three-year ‘plateau’
It may be bad form to be pessimistic but this is one of the most alarming articles I have seen in some time. While it makes clear the thinking behind forecasts, it also shows the lack of allowance for bad news. Credible scientists must be very cautious in their conclusions, meaning they will fail to highlight the more dangerous side of probability, not wanting to be labeled alarmists. Intuitive viewing of both chars shows that bias all to plainly.
Try to put bad news into these charts. Good news is when we advance alternative energy, which had been advancing very nicely, it will be a smooth turning of the curves. But there is potential for a lot of bad news which these charts must accommodate, and these are from nature, on a planetary scale, as seen on the sawtooth nature of land sink rates.Pray for China to take some big steps, they need to lead the big gray world curves in the right direction. US is out cold for the next few years, hopefully enlightened voters will get us to go in the right direction soon, but sloppy policy could cause us to trip into bad suprise feedback loops.
Scary!
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sailingfree at 01:17 AM on 16 November 2017It hasn't warmed since 1998
Good discussion. It would be helpfull to see here the data for 2014,2015, 2016, and 2017, to cinch the warming argument. An updated "escalator" would be dramatic.
Thanks.
Moderator Response:[JH] Your suggestions have been shared with the SkS author team.
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michael sweet at 22:22 PM on 15 November 2017On climate and global leadership, it's America Last until 2020
kulbirdi:
Please list 5 western countries that have bsnned coal use to uspport your wild claim that "using coal energy, but that is banned in many western countries."
According to this article, 6 countries have stated they intend to ban coal use, but all currently use coal. The USA under President Trump is currently encouraging greater use of coal. Why do you require the Chinese to lead the way?
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Paul D at 21:44 PM on 15 November 2017On climate and global leadership, it's America Last until 2020
kulbirdi @ 3
хорошего дня!
China has grown on the back of American and European businesses transfering their manufacturing operations to China. I used to work for a successful British business that did most it's software development and and manufacturing in the UK. It was then taken over by a an American business that then closed down manufacturing in the UK and sent it to China. Software development went to India.
In other words Western companies exported emissions to China.
In any case anyone in the West can refuse to purchase goods manufactured in China, but they don't. There is no law forcing people to buy anything.
That is what capitalism tells us, we all have a free will. Or are you suggesting we don't and that markets need to be controlled based on nationalist principles?
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