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Comments 2201 to 2250:
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Rob Honeycutt at 00:46 AM on 21 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
Albert @150... I'm curious why you can't see what you're doing is selecting (cherry picking) short time frames out of a clear overall trend in order to fit a predetermined conclusion.
This is truly what I find so fascinating to witness. The sheer volume of well-established research and scientific evidence that has to be dismissed or ignored in order to come to such conclusions is staggering.
Anthony Watts I can understand simply because his income is predicated on keeping climate deniers coming to his website. People who don't have a specific monetary necessity, these I don't understand.
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Rob Honeycutt at 00:35 AM on 21 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
Albert @149... So, I guess you're saying ice measurements before satellites weren't accurate unless you're trying to use pre-satellite ice measurements to reject research that you don't like. Right?
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MA Rodger at 19:21 PM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
Albert @151,
If you start from 2003 you get a linear trend of -0.052M sq km/y, an even steeper decline.
Perhaps to assist you in this exercise (which is presently somewhat akin to the children's game 'Pin the Tail on the Donkey'), may I point you at the excellent JAXA Vishop webpage which provides 'graph options' that include 'annual graph' and 'draw linear fitting lines from visible region'. This will show you that all trends in this data for periods ending 2022 are declining for start-dates prior to 2015. Given the wobbly nature of the data, using just eight data points, this same facility shows the data yields other instances of non-negative eight-point-long trends in this data so such a short period is entirely unrepresentative.
Moderator Response:[BL] You're doing this wrong. You're not supposed to do actual statistical analysis on the data. If you look at the monthly values, not annual, there is a lot more noise, and you can then use your eyecrometer to just look at the graph (ignoring the "draw linear fitting" button), and then your Morton's demon will filter out any signal that shows a decreasing trend and you can convince yourself that it looks like 0 trend.
(HTML badly needs a sarcasm tag.)
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Albert22804 at 17:20 PM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
I do look at JAXA data and it evidently has "decreased since 2006" in that the JAXA annual average SIE 2006-22 has a linear trend of -0.032M sq km/y"
I was wrong, if you start from 2003 instead you will see that JAXA data linear trend shows 0 change.
Moderator Response:[BL] So, to make your point, you start looking for outliers and cherry picking certain times to get the result you want? Classic use of the techniques illustrated in The Escalator (updated version).
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Albert22804 at 17:00 PM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
The Kinnard has Arctic ice extent increasing from about 750 to 1500 which is an absurdity. Vikings colonised Greenland about 980 and farmed some areas that today are permafrost.
But the graph shows 980 ice extent to be about the same as 1700 and by that time the areas farmed were permafrost.
The graph shows ice extent dropping dramatically from about 1400 but the little ice age was ramping up in 1400, not down.
The graph shows ice extent increasing dramatically from about 1600 but the LIA peaked around 1650-1700 and temperatures have risen sporadically ever since. The Central England Temperature database correlates well with this.
Here is a different reconstruction that shows 1940 Arctic ice to be about the same as
[LINK]
See figure 1bBut the guy was italian and what would they know? See, I can be sarcastic as well.
Moderator Response:[BL]Link breaking page formatting shortened.
Your Greenland myth is covered in this post.
You have already been pointed to places where your poor understanding of the Medieval Warm Period is covered.
You can correct your misunderstandings about the Little Ice Age by reading this post.
The Van Achter reconstruction that you show uses climate model data fitted to recent sea ice data to extrapolate values into the past and future. They also state "The Canadian Archipelago region was removed from the dataset since SIT reaches unrealistic values in this area." They also state "For the variability analysis, the trend and seasonal cycle are removed from the time series (pan-Arctic SIV and gridded SIT)".
Have you considered how this selection of data might influence the result? The authors have. In their conclusions, they state:
This analysis of the Arctic SIT and SIV variability bears some limits. Indeed, our results for the temporal and spatial patterns of variability are based on only one model, and despite the use of 30 ensemble members and a reasonable validation against observations, the model is not perfect. Furthermore, the spatial modes of SIT variability are robust for all the 30 ensemble members, but the temporal analysis shows some dissimilarities between members. Other studies with other model outputs are therefore needed to confirm our conclusion.
Given that you reject climate models entirely, I am surprised that you would be so convinced that a reconstruction based on one is the most reliable indicator of past sea ice conditions.
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Rob Honeycutt at 15:44 PM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
"...the trend has probably plateaued."
And that is what we call a baseless assertion.
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Rob Honeycutt at 15:42 PM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
"The graph above showing Arctic ice just shows reconstructions because there was no accurate way to measure total Arctic ice before satellites."
Oh ye of little faith is the cleverness of smart researchers.
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Albert22804 at 15:42 PM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
Thanks for the insert advice, it was driving me bananas.
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Albert22804 at 15:40 PM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
finally managed to insert it.
if you look at average extents, it can be seen that from about 2007 the trend has probably plateaued.
if satellites had been operating from 1940, the downward trend would be Far less.
The most accurate extent measuring satellite is MASIE which measures in 16km2 blocks rather than the 225km2 blocks of SII and it shows Arctic extent plateauing from 2006.
From memory I think JAXA and the University of Bremen have the plateau starting even earlier.
Moderator Response:[BL] Here we see the effects of confirmation bias plus overconfidence in one's opinions. In spite of earlier saying "there was no accurate way to measure total Arctic ice before satellites." as a way of rejecting data covering the 1940 period that he does not like, Albert is now asserting his confident opinion that if such data existed, he knows what it would show.
And again he inserts "has probably plateaued" instead of actually doing any sort of real statistical analysis.
I expect Albert has also not noticed that the Arctic Ocean is surrounded by land, which severely limits the winter maximum ice extent. There are well-understood reasons why winter extent does not show as much variation as summer extent. But as long as Albert can average away the strong decline in summer extent - which disagrees with his confirmation bias - then averaging it will be!
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Rob Honeycutt at 15:36 PM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
I'll note that all the trend lines in both these graphs are showing ice loss. Anything on shorter scales, up or down, is merely noise.
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Rob Honeycutt at 15:33 PM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
Also, be sure to check the image size on the "appearance" tab. Make sure to restrict the image to 500px width.
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Rob Honeycutt at 15:32 PM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
Second tab says "insert." See the picture of the tree? Click that and... voila!
Your problem is that you need to have a direct link to the image, not just the page. Right click the image (control+click on a Mac), then select open the image in a new tab. Use that URL.
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Albert22804 at 15:30 PM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
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Albert22804 at 15:26 PM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
I tried to insert a graphic from DMI showing Arctic ice extent from 1979 but without success.
https://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/icecover_30y.uk.php
The URL shows a decline of about 15% from 1979 to about 2012 but unfortunately most warmists only refer to the minimum monthly values rather than all the data.
Its like only giving January rainfall totals instead of the yearly totals.
The graph above showing Arctic ice just shows reconstructions because there was no accurate way to measure total Arctic ice before satellites.
I could show you reconstructions showing significantly different trends but I know it would be a waste of time.
Moderator Response:[BL] Link activated.
The web software here does not automatically create links. You can do this when posting a comment by selecting the "insert" tab, selecting the text you want to use for the link, and clicking on the icon that looks like a chain link. Add the URL in the dialog box.As for your assertion that yearly totals should be looked at, not January (for rainfall) - if the goal of an analysis is to look at crop production in Australia, then January precip is probably much more informative than annual totals.
Any argument of "all the data" is usually bogus. For Arctic sea ice, you don't include seasonal ice cover in the tropics, either. You don't divide the ice area by total ocean area (or the area of the globe). Every scientific analysis requires the use of relevant data. You have not provided any argument as to the relevance of using annual totals.
As for offering to show "reconstructions showing significantly different trends", you fail if you do not show that the "significantly different" claim is supported by actual, real statistical analysis. You know: the kind of things that real scientists do.
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Rob Honeycutt at 15:21 PM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
Albert @139... Would you like a quick tutorial on how to post images here?
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Rob Honeycutt at 15:18 PM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
If one thinks about how Albert is trying to frame this, it makes no sense. I've heard the same tripe from other deniers over the years; he's not the first to come up with this.
He's trying to re-frame the question from "in order to determine the level of scientific consensus that human activity is very likely causing most of the current GW" into "in order to determine the percentage of research papers that endorse and quantify human contribution to GW as >50%."
It's quite a nonsensical and pointless framing of his (their) own creation that bears no relevance to anything that would have the least bit of interest to anyone.
Once again, it is fascinating to watch such entrenched, intractable displays like this.
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Albert22804 at 15:11 PM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
linear trends have their uses but can be misleading and if the above trend had a 12 month filter, that would give a more realistic interpretation of Arctic ice trend.
the start and stop times of linear trends can heavily influence what a trend looks like and the assumption that Arctic ice is on a permanent downward spiral rather than cyclic is just speculation.
The end of summer Arctic ice has been predicted regularly since 2006 by the top Arctic experts but it never eventuates.
Moderator Response:[BL] Your baseless assertion about predictions of the end of arctic summer ice needs to be backed up by specific references.
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Rob Honeycutt at 15:03 PM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
Albert... I think you should take a moment to read the comments policy for this site. Accusations as you've just leveled are against policy.
As for your question, no one was trying to hide anything. The data is there available for anyone who wishes to dig into it. But it's not really relevant to the results of the paper. It just creates fodder for people like you whose intent is to misinterpret the data.
Regarding the AMS paper, different from the Cook paper, that research was about the opinions of their members. As already stated, the paper was structured similar to Doran/Zimmerman where the subjects had varying degrees of expertise in the subject matter. Once you got to publishing PhD level scientists, yes there was a consensus in the 97% range.
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Rob Honeycutt at 10:29 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
@933... Missed this one: "The only 'evidence' for the positive feedback theory are models which are trying to model something where many variables are only guesstimates."
Incorrect.
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Rob Honeycutt at 10:24 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
"But Michael Mann showed us in his model that the medieval warm period and little ice age never existed so all those thousands of scientists that proved they did exist must be wrong."
a) Please look up the definition of the word "heterogeneous."
b) Assuming you're talking about MBH98/99, that was nearly 25 years ago and their research only went back too the MWP. Perhaps you should catch up on more recent research.
(Yes, this is quickly veering off-topic... as one would expect.)
Moderator Response:[PS] Any further discussion on this thread that is not about the consensus will be deleted.
[BL] Discussion of the Medieval Warm Period should go on one of these threads:
https://skepticalscience.com/medieval-warm-period.htm
https://skepticalscience.com/IPCC-Medieval-Warm-Period.htm
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Rob Honeycutt at 10:18 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
@934... "believe it or not there are other factors that effect global temperature like, the sun, solar winds, magnetic fields, cosmic rays...(etc., etc.)."
This is starting to gish into a big gallop.
If you're going to accept low CS figures then you also need to accept high CS as well, otherwise you're just cherry picking your preferred conclusions without considering the full body of research.
There are good reasons to believe the high CS figures have low probability, as there are even stronger reasons to believe low CS figures are improbable.
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Rob Honeycutt at 10:12 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
@933... "Many scientists believe that the positive feedback theory because of any temperature change in the atmosphere is grossly overstated and some even think the feedback is negative."
Yes, members of the infinitessimal group of dismissives whose research is so bad that it can't get published in decent journals.
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Rob Honeycutt at 10:09 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
"The 2016 American Meteorological Society conducted poll of their members..."
(sigh) So, you're going to misinterpret this research as well?
Read that paper again, please. The conclusion was that the AMS needed to do a better job of educating their members. It was set up much like Doran/Zimmerman showing how agreement with human causation increased with greater levels of expertise.
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Rob Honeycutt at 10:06 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
@932... "How can you misinterpret a plain English statement saying 'explicitly endorses >50% of warming is human induced'?"
Yes, this is indeed the exact sentence you're attempting to use to reject the conclusions of the paper. Remember, the conclusion of the paper is that 97.3% of the research agrees that human activities are primarily responsible for global warming.
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Rob Honeycutt at 10:03 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
@931... "This puts them in category 2 or 3 and not category 5,6 or 7."
Nope.
Rejecting well established feedbacks in favor of an unsupportable idea that ECS is 1.2°C is clearly minimizing human contribution since it's abundantly obvious that CS is higher just based on warming to date.
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Rob Honeycutt at 10:00 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
@930... And that is your disingenuous interpretation of the paper. Everyone else understands this statement is what defines the endorsement categories relative to endorsement vs minimizing.
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Albert22804 at 09:57 AM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
"BL] In the absence of an argument from you that short-term variations actually indicate a departure from long-term trends, there is nothing to challenge."
You keep misinterpreting the point I am making is that Arctic ice thickness and volume stopped shrinking at least 11 years ago, I made no other claim.
What do you mean by a "long term trend"? the Satellite measuring of Arctic ice and global temperatures started in 1979 and we know that global temperatures reduced from about 1940 until the mid 1970s and we know that Arctic ice is sensitive to global temperature so it is logical to believe that Arctic was low in 1940.
I will find some evidence that scientists believed Arctic ice was low in 1940 but I suspect that even if I did, you wouldn't acknowledge it
Moderator Response:[BL] Your claim that volume "stopped shrinking" is a claim that things have changed from a previous trend. To support that claim, you need to provide statistical analysis that the short-term data is not within the normal variation of that long-term trend. Simply asserting a claim over and over is not valid support.
Look at your own graph from your original comment, repeated here for convenience:
.You do see how the data you presented drops from +7 to -7 over the past 40 years? You do see that the data over the past decade is within the error bars of that overall trend? You do understand the statistical importance of trends, error bars, etc?
You have also been previously pointed to a link that discusses the myth about low ice amounts in the 1940s. It is not logical to believe that ice was low in 1940 when evidence says that it was not.
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Albert22804 at 09:46 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
"Such low ECS figures would mean the earth's climate should be almost perfectly stable over geologic time (no glacial-interglacial cycles) and we know that's not true."
Rob, believe it or not there are other factors that effect global temperature like, the sun, solar winds, magnetic fields, cosmic rays, transportation and retention and expulsion of ocean heat, volcanic activity above and below water, aerosols, clouds, gravitational pull of other planets, milankovitcg cycles, earth rotation wobble, shifting of poles, etc.
Our current warming cycle started around 1700 as The little ice age peaked negatively and we have been warming sporadically ever since.
its all perfectly normal with many historical precedents in the Holocene and previous interglacials.
1000 years ago Vikings colonised and farmed parts of Greenland that are still permafrost today. How can this be unless Greenland was far hotter than today. etc Etc etc.
But Michael Mann showed us in his model that the medieval warm period and little ice age never existed so all those thousands of scientists that proved they did exist must be wrong.
Moderator Response:[PS] This is getting offtopic and you are now trying gish-gallop of long debunked myths in violation of comments policy. Use the search function to find the appropriate myth and post your evidence from reputable source if you wish to dispute it. Without supporting evidence, you are simply engaging in sloganeering.
It takes a certain chutzpah to believe that scientists have somehow ignored other factors. Try reading the Attribution chapter of the IPCC report to form an informed opinion. Similarly, the ice age cycle is well-understood which even cursory reading would show.
Since you dont appear to be to learn, we can only assume that you are trying to persuade us to a different opinion. Trying to change the mind of well-informed people means becoming well-informed yourself. Repeating nonsense doesnt do that.
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Albert22804 at 09:26 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
"Dismissing feedbacks is an assertion of blind faith in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. You just have to read the body of research."
I haven't dismissed any feedbacks, only the belief that they can be accurately measured. Many scientists believe that the positive feedback theory because of any temperature change in the atmosphere is grossly overstated and some even think the feedback is negative.
The only "evidence" for the positive feedback theory are models which are trying to model something where many variables are only guesstimates.
I programmed process computers for over 20 years and have a reasonable understanding of how models work.
If you you gave me the source code and runtime variable values of any model that purports to ""prove" positive feedback theory, I could show you in a short period of time that by adjusting these variables, any desired output could be achieved.
Moderator Response:[BL] The snipped portions represent accusations that the people developing climate models stick in any number they want, to achieve a desired result. That may be the way you code programs, but it is not the way climate modelers work.
Unless you can back up that serious accusation with proper references, future accusations will be deleted.
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Albert22804 at 09:13 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
"What you're doing is disingenuously trying to misinterpret one sentence in the paper, ingoring the rest of what is clearly explained, in order to justify your personal need to reject the conclusions."
How can you misinterpret a plain English statement saying "explicitly endorses >50% of warming is human induced"?
I reject "your conclusions" not "the conclusions"
The 2016 American Meteorological Society conducted poll of their members in 2016 asking them if they believed humans were contributing to global warming was happening and 96% said yes. I would also have said yes and every sceptic I know as well. It was pretty much the same as Cooks categories 1,2 and 3.
But unlike Cook, they asked directly if they believed humans were the main cause of global warming and 67% said yes. This question was equivalent to Cooks category 1.
Moderator Response:[BL] Last sentence underlined for emphasis.
Have you given any thought at all as to what that 67% figure means for the erroneous 1.6% number you keep going back to? Are you capable of any consistent argument?
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Albert22804 at 09:02 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
"No, Albert. Most "skeptics" do not endorse the idea that humans are the primary cause of global warming. They minimize human contribution to warming"
Sorry Rob, that is not what a I said. Most sceptics accept the primary greenhouse theory where ECS is about 1.2C but Not the positive feedback theory where ECS increases to 3-4.5C.
This puts them in category 2 or 3 and not category 5,6 or 7.
So it's not surprising that categories 5,6 and 7 have low numbers.
Moderator Response:[BL] And it has been pointed out to you that the categories in the paper relate to recent warming, not ECS. You are fundamentally not understanding what the paper looks at.
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Albert22804 at 08:54 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
"We examined a large sample of the scientific literature on global CC, published over a 21 year period, in order to determine the level of scientific consensus that human activity is very likely causing most of the current GW (anthropogenic global warming, or AGW). [emphasis added]"
And category 1 fits that definition perfectly.And just 64 out of the 4000 explicitly said that human activity was the main cause of global warning.
Moderator Response:[BL] You keep repeating this basic mathematical error. There is no justification for using the number of papers from categories 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7 (and the small part of 4 that means "uncertain") as a single group that disagrees with category 1.
Until you provide a justification for that grouping, future references to this calculation will be deleted.
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Rob Honeycutt at 05:23 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
In order to come to the conclusions he is, Albert has to completely ignore this important statement in the introduction of the Cook paper.
We examined a large sample of the scientific literature on global CC, published over a 21 year period, in order to determine the level of scientific consensus that human activity is very likely causing most of the current GW (anthropogenic global warming, or AGW). [emphasis added]
This is the fundamental premise of the research. This explains why there are endorse vs minimize categories. Albert is laser focused on a misinterpretation of only one sentence in the paper, to the exclusion of all else, in order to confirm his priors.
As I've pointed out innumerable times over the decade since the publication of Cook, the "skeptics" are more than welcome to do the exact same research and see what results they get. And in that decade none of them have taken up that challenge, more often than not coming up with lame excuses why they can't or won't.
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Rob Honeycutt at 01:28 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
@923... I'd agree with BL that the last sentence there is a quantification of >50%. But it's a moot point. Whether one were to put it in category 1 or 2 matters not, since both of those categories are endorsements of the idea that humans are the primary cause of modern warming.
So, one more time, the entire exercise this paper engages in is to separate research that endorses the position that humans are primarily responsible for warming and papers that minimize human responsibility. That is the very structure of the rating system. That is the fundamental premise stated in the title of the paper, Quantifying the consensus on anthropogenic global warming in the scientific literature.
Papers either endorse AGW or they minimize it. If a paper claims that the direct effects of CO2 are too small compared to other natural factors that is a minimization of the anthropogenic element of global warming.
Moderator Response:[BL] For what it is worth, here are definitions for "mainly" and "main", from wiktionary.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mainly
1. Chiefly; for the most part.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/main#English
1. Of chief or leading importance; prime, principal.
2. Chief, most important, or principal in extent, size, or strength; consisting of the largest part. -
Rob Honeycutt at 01:12 AM on 20 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
Albert... Again, this is a great opportunity for a bet. I'd bet you, in 10 years, the decadal average (pick your ice metric) will be lower than the current decadal average.
Remember... Cooling is going to start right now! ;-)
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Rob Honeycutt at 01:04 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
@922... No, Albert. Most "skeptics" do not endorse the idea that humans are the primary cause of global warming. They minimize human contribution to warming.
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Rob Honeycutt at 01:03 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
@921... "please stop throwing in red herrings like "minimise" and tell me why my direct quote is wrong?"
How can it be a red herring when it's written extensively into the paper?
What you're doing is disingenuously trying to misinterpret one sentence in the paper, ingoring the rest of what is clearly explained, in order to justify your personal need to reject the conclusions.
I'm continuing to engage with you on this topic because I find this very phenonenon utterly fascinating. I don't think you're at all a stupid person, but you seem to have a fanatical need for a particular conclusion. This is precisely what climate denial is. And it is precisely this weakness of the human mind that science has developed to compensate for.
Compared to most scientific research this Cook paper is a relatively simple experiment. It's also very simple to understand. The paper went through an extensive review process with lots of tough questions from reviewers. It was published in a respected journal. The conclusions are robust and since have become even more so.
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Rob Honeycutt at 00:52 AM on 20 April 2023There is no consensus
Albert @920... "...but if you believe that feedbacks are "well known" pleas provide an exampl that is not ambiguous."
a) You've accepted that the direct effect from doubling CO2 would cause 1.2°C of warming, therefore there would be some loss of ice cover and some increase in water vapor, both producing additional warming.
b) We have currently raised CO2 levels by about 50% and already seen about 1.2°C of warming in the modern era.
c) Such low ECS figures would mean the earth's climate should be almost perfectly stable over geologic time (no glacial-interglacial cycles) and we know that's not true.
d) CO2+feedbacks (~3°C) explain a great many other geologic effects related to temperature including the gradual fall in global temp over the past 60my.
Dismissing feedbacks is an assertion of blind faith in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. You just have to read the body of research.
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MA Rodger at 23:43 PM on 19 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
Albert @133/134,
Simply accepting anecdotal evidence from newspapers is not the way to determine historical Arctic ice conditions.
There are serious attempts to create records running back before the instrument era, like Walsh et al (2017) 'A database for depicting Arctic sea ice variations back to 1850' which is the subject of the CarbonBrief article linked @131 with the graphic @132. A little more recently there is Schweiger et al (2019) 'Arctic Sea Ice Volume Variability over 1901–2010: A Model-Based Reconstruction' which reaches similar conclusions, the graphic below from that paper showing rolling annual averages of Arctic SIV and annual red dots.
I would suggest you read the comment @123 if you feel that "no one has challenged the fact that Arctic ice thickness or extent has not dropped since 2012." And I do look at JAXA data and it evidently has "decreased since 2006" in that the JAXA annual average SIE 2006-22 has a linear trend of -0.032M sq km/y, a smaller decline than for the earlier part of the record (-0.51Msq km/y) but still a decline. So it has "dropped."
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Eclectic at 23:28 PM on 19 April 2023There is no consensus
Albert @921 & other posts ,
Evidently, you have not read the second part of the Cook 2013 paper, where it clearly shows your "1.6%" figure is so grossly wrong about the consensus. So grossly wrong, that it is difficult to believe you are being serious.
Likewise, you seem suspiciously uneducated about feedbacks/ runaways.
Just to throw you a bone : note that the global surface temperature has increased ~1.2 degreesC over about 170 years & an atmospheric CO2 rise of 50%. Try your math on that.
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Albert22804 at 21:27 PM on 19 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
But no one has challenged the fact that Arctic ice thickness or extent has not dropped since 2012 and if you look at the University of Bremen, JAXA and MASIE, they say that Arctic ice extent has not decreased since 2006.
Check it out.
Moderator Response:[BL] In the absence of an argument from you that short-term variations actually indicate a departure from long-term trends, there is nothing to challenge.
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Albert22804 at 21:24 PM on 19 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
"The NASA presentation of Arctic Sea Ice Extent from 1851 to 2017 does not show an 80 year cycle. It shows a fairly significant recent decline of extent of sea ice."
there is an abundance of evidence from newspapers and other sources that Arctic ice extent in the 1940s was low. If i did provide the evidence I suspect that you would just ignore it.
But I will if you request it.
Moderator Response:[BL] Don't bother. Newspapers are not a useful reference point, and this canard about ice in the 1940s has already been debunked on this thread:
https://skepticalscience.com/Arctic-sea-ice-loss-1940s.htm
You need to find some more reliable sources.
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Albert22804 at 21:17 PM on 19 April 2023There is no consensus
You asked for an example of category one where the abstract doesnt endorse a >50% quantity.
this is from an article abstract allegedly in category 1 about halons.
"Substitute fluorocarbons may have direct environmental impact, for example as greenhouse gases, or indirect impacts through the products of their decomposition in the environment. The mechanisms of that atmospheric decomposition are reviewed here and shown to be well established now. The end products are halogen acids and trifluoroacetic acid, all of which pre-exist in the environment in quantities greater than are expected to arise from fluorocarbon use and emissions. Furthermore, the growth in use of fluorocarbon replacements has been shown to be far less than the fall in CFC and Halon production. Hydrochlorofluorocarbons (HCFCs) have replaced less than one third of CFCs and are, themselves, ozone depleting substances that will be phased out under the Montreal Protocol. The growth in hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) amounts to about 10% of the fall in CFCs. It is likely that the impact of new fluorocarbons on climate change will be a very small fraction of the total impact, which comes mainly from the accumulation of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere."
pmease tell me how this paper was considered to be category 1?
in fact, after reading all 64 abstracts i can only find about 45 actually endorsing a >50% anthropogenic effect.
Moderator Response:[BL] When providing material such as this, you should provide a link to the paper you are referring to. The paper in question is this one.
Which part of "comes mainly from the accumulation of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere" is hard for you to understand? It explicitly states that CO2 is the main factor - more than 50%.
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Albert22804 at 21:06 PM on 19 April 2023There is no consensus
"Three endorse categories and 3 minimize categories."
and that is the statistical dishonesty of the study because Cook knew that most sceptics are in categories 2 and 3, not categories 6 and 7 so scientific papers expressing no or little belief in AGW would be minuscule.
Moderator Response:[BL] Accusations of dishonesty are specifically against the Comments Policy. This applies to accusations against people commenting here, or papers from the scientific literature.
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Albert22804 at 21:01 PM on 19 April 2023There is no consensus
"Quite commonly I see statements saying that Cooks paper said the "97% of scientists believe that humans are largely (>50%) responsible for global warming" but Cooks paper category 1 clearly and unambiguously states that the figure is 1.6%."
please stop throwing in red herrings like "minimise" and tell me why my direct quote is wrong?
Moderator Response:[BL] Your quote is not a quote from the category descriptions, and "minimise" is a term used in five of the seven categories in the study, as included in the table I provided in comment 912 (which is directly from the supplemental data).
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Albert22804 at 20:54 PM on 19 April 2023There is no consensus
"The direct effect from CO2 is, as you say, ~1.2°C but you can't just reject physics and say there wouldn't be feedbacks. The feedbacks are very well known"
Not true. Even a basic knowledge of the complexity of modelling feedback would tll that it is impossible to model or prove.
it cannot be replicated in the lab or models, and any so called proof can easily be shown to be nit true.
if you know the basics of feedback theory you would know that the output to any given input has to be known precisely otherwise you cannot determine anything.
To give just one example, increased evaporation causes clouds and precipitation and there Are many scientists who believe that the feedback can only be negative or else there would be an exerthermic runaway.
but if you believe that feedbacks are "well known" pleas provide an exampl that is not ambiguous.
Moderator Response:[BL] The entire foundation of science is based on models of one sort or another. Your claims of modelling feedbacks being impossible are simply bogus.
Models should be discussed on the "models are unreliable" myth page.
Increased evaporation is not a guarantee of increased cloud of precipitation. Your argument is overly simplistic. Cloud feedback should be discussed on this thread.
Your argument that positive feedback leads to a runaway effect is also bogus. Answered on this thread.
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MA Rodger at 17:47 PM on 19 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
The pertinent graphic in scaddenp's link @131 cannot be 'hot' linked directly from CarbonBrief but it is available elsewhere online.
It does show the 1940's being as melty as say 1990 but there is no significant 80-year cycle to be seen. The more usual talk of 'cycle' is seen in Arctic temperature records but the same is also seen outside the Arctic and all across the northern hemisphere. GISTEMP zonal data suggests that up in the Arctic the 1940's were as warm as 2000 but the record 1880-on is not long enough to show the presence of any 80-year cycle. However the Berkeley Earth data for Svalbard dates back to 1800 but shows no sign of such a cycle.
And the assertion that in 2023 we are about to see the Arctic plunge back into some cold icy condition for decades is not born out by any SIE or SIV record. The future of Arctic SIE in a warming world may be one of 'difficult-to-reach' ice hanging on or it could be one of it 'going with a rush'. Take your pick. It will likely be a bit of both. But a reversal of recent declines in ice is no more than wishful thinking.
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prove we are smart at 15:47 PM on 19 April 2023EGU2023 - Upcoming presentations in Vienna
We are putting 40,thousand,million tons of co2 into the tiny 10km space above our heads. As much as scientists explain and educate it's not changing this figure- oh yes, it's slowing down a little-apparantly!
The powerful elite-the billionairs,financiers,ceo's,politicians et all, love the staus quo.
As much as I trust peer reviewed science and this yearly conference will be enlightening for many- the fouty thousand,million tons of co2 is still increasing.
The thirty years of IPCC and its 6 yearly reports, aimed directly at govts worldwide has not been listened to-thousands of peer reviewed science FACTS are ignored.
This wonderful blog site educated me on climate science and was part of the catalyst to develop a big picture view on so much. My opinions can change but for a few years now they haven't. This British climate scientist seems to be saying the right things for me.
Is dangerous climate change not really dangerous for the 1% ?
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scaddenp at 15:38 PM on 19 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
A better link for extent from 1850 is:
www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-piecing-together-arctic-sea-ice-history-1850/ Same dataset -
One Planet Only Forever at 14:52 PM on 19 April 2023Arctic sea ice has recovered
Albert @126,
What is the evidence for an 80 year cycle of warm waters being brought to the Arctic?
The NASA presentation of Arctic Sea Ice Extent from 1851 to 2017 does not show an 80 year cycle. It shows a fairly significant recent decline of extent of sea ice.
