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Comments 13951 to 14000:

13951. John Hartz at 01:17 AM on 2 August 2018
       Comprehensive study: carbon taxes won't hamper the economy
       

       In my opinion, the spending priorities of the US federal government have been out of whack for decades as illustrated in the gaphic below. It's mind-boggling to imagine what could be accomplished if one-half of the US Defense budget were to be spent on mitiagting and adapting to manmdae climate change.

       

13952. scaddenp at 10:14 AM on 1 August 2018
       Comprehensive study: carbon taxes won't hamper the economy
       

       Actually we continue to disagree. You percieve people are more selfish. I think you are imputing selfishness for behaviours that are identity based. You also seem imply that environment is source of beliefs despite evidence for genetic influence.

       I wish people would use reason but the evidence is that they dont. I dont think you are going to change that.

13953. One Planet Only Forever at 09:05 AM on 1 August 2018
       Comprehensive study: carbon taxes won't hamper the economy
       

       scaddenp,

       I agree that the trends of developed attitudes in western competitive consumerism impression based environments result in many people being unjustifiably selfish (and some of them will spin that into a claim that everyone is selfish).

       How many people are altruistic is a function of the environment hey develop in. People are unique regarding their predispositions for altruism vs egoism. However, the environment they develop in influences the way they 'choose to develop their thinking'.

       The western cultures, particularly the New World countries built by pushing aside existing populations, and especially the USA with it's aggressive imperialist beliefs in manifest destiny and attempts to annihilate the Others (existing populations) of the land they took over, clearly develop more tribal selfish people.

       My understanding comes from my MBA training in subjects like Organizational Behaviour, observing what is going on, and reading many different books, with the ones including references to recent psychological understanding that I have recently read being:

       • Guy P. Harrison "Think" and "Good Thinking"
       • Sean Carroll "The Big Picture"
       • Susan Cain "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking"
       • Al Gore "The Assault on Reason"

       All of those books present the understanding that I have been expressing. People have the ability to apply Good Reason. If they did not develop it before being confronted with the awareness and understanding of the need for everyone to act for Good Reason they can learn to be Good Reasoning people.

       I agree that an unjustified developed sense of personal prestige, prosperity or superiority relative to others (the harmful selfishness I refer to needing to be corrected) can impede a person's choice to become helpful. But I share John Stuart Mill's understanding that for humanity to have a better future it is important to maximize the number of Good Reasoning people to ensure that Good Reason over-rules those other desires.

       There are 3 possible categories for the results of a person's life. They all relate to how the life thta was lived affected others, including how it affected future generations. They are: Helpful, Irrelevant, Harmful.

       I appreciate that many people will be happy to live their life in the irrelevant category. But I feel it is important to help them understand that they should at least try to be on the helpful side of irrelevant. As you say, lots of people want to be helpful. As I say Altruism, not Egoism (selfishness), is the path to being more helpful.

       All that said, I understand that some people do not like to have their choices limited (especially not be limited by Others). As an engineer I face that reality regularly. But as a professional, I never allow the unjustified desires of a manager, client, or even another engineer, over-rule Good Reason. That would/should apply to all professions, and should apply to everyone.

       Increased awareness and better understanding how to help develop a sustainable better future for humanity is what a good life is really all about in the end.

13954. nigelj at 07:44 AM on 1 August 2018
       Climate change made 2018 European heatwave up to ‘five times’ more likely
       

       From New Scientist: Warming Arctic could be behind heatwave sweeping northern hemisphere

13955. scaddenp at 07:22 AM on 1 August 2018
       Comprehensive study: carbon taxes won't hamper the economy
       

       Well I think it is extremely counter-productive to tell people that the reason they behave in some way because they are selfish when their behaviour actually has other motivations. We are all selfish but we are all social animals too. Sure, censure is effective in behaviour. We are incredibly sensitive to traces about what is acceptable behaviour or not. But we take our clues as to what is acceptable behaviour from our identity group and freely ignore what an "outsider" says. However, we have many circles of identity - what our family does, what our community does, what our church does, what our country does. The trick is to ensure the trace has the right identity.

       I still reckon good luck with "Good Reason". I think there is a lot of truth in the "You cannot reason people out of positions they didn’t reason themselves into." As I have said before, I think critical thinking is about as natural as breathing underwater. Effective change comes from strategies better aligned with what we know of human psychology. I happily acknowledge Niki Harre's "Psychology for a better world" as influencing my thinking here. 

13956. nigelj at 07:08 AM on 1 August 2018
       America spends over $20bn per year on fossil fuel subsidies. Abolish them
       

       M Sweet @6,

       "Does it really make sense to take away renewable subsidies while giving fossil fuels over 5 trillion dollars????"

       I agree it most definitely does not! If fossil fuel subsidies remain in place, renewable energy must be equally subsidised. It has to be a level playing field, regardless of any carbon tax or other additional measure.

       Of course it would be more sensible to cancel fossil fuel subsidies and push that money into subsidisng what we want, namely renewable energy projects. However I have no illusions about the political difficulties of this.

       Or cancel both subsidies and rely on a carbon tax mechanism?

       I have no objection to subsidies in general principle. I just think they need to be mainly to help industries get started, and be time limited to ensure industries don't become permanently reliant on such things. For example electric cars  receive subsidies in the USA and I think this is until the underlying price becomes competitive and numbers of sales reach a certain level. This is not unreasonable. It could also have been just for a defined time period.

13957. nigelj at 06:45 AM on 1 August 2018
       America spends over $20bn per year on fossil fuel subsidies. Abolish them
       

       OPOF, I agree with the general thrust of your comments, but fossil fuel use is more like tobacco smoking than you think. Fossil fuel use harms the individual and other people, and also many future generations. Passive smoking obviously harms the individual, but it also harms other people through passive smoking, and it harms the unborn child.

       Taxes are applied to tobacco for two reasons, firstly to pay for costs of illness, and secondly  to reduce the rates of use of tobacco, so taxes (or a 'levy') seem appropriate as a mechanism to reduce fossil fuel use. Tobacco taxes have lead to a considerable reduction in use in NZ despite the fact tobacco is extremely addictive. 

       There are other ways of phasing out fossil fuel use, like imposing a fine in literal terms, or forcing fossil fuel companies to phase down production, but its hard for me to see this having wide public and political appeal. A carbon tax and dividend might be the measure that has impact and is politically plausible and has some characteristics of a fine.

       And clearly fossil fuel subsidies should be immediately cancelled.

13958. MA Rodger at 02:52 AM on 1 August 2018
       Other planets are warming
       

       Further to the comment @51, for those unfamiliar with the mentioned 'local fluff', there is a Wiki-page and this web-page puts some bones on its potential impact on climate (or not, as the case may be).

13959. michael sweet at 02:22 AM on 1 August 2018
       America spends over $20bn per year on fossil fuel subsidies. Abolish them
       

       What do the people who don't like the small subsidies for renewable energy think about these subsidies? 

       Do you really think we should take away all subsidies from renewables (the energy of the future) and make them compete on this unequal play field? 

       Does it really make sense to take away renewable subsidies while giving fossil fuels over 5 trillion dollars????

       We have to have renewable energy policies that consider the realities of the current system.

13960. One Planet Only Forever at 01:13 AM on 1 August 2018
       Comprehensive study: carbon taxes won't hamper the economy
       

       scaddenp,

       The rule of law is the enforcment of better behaviour on those who resist behaving better. It comes into effect when the education of the population fails to develop responsible self-governing individuals.

       Selfishness is not a default human behaviour. It is the result of a lack of better education and of competitions to 'appear' to be superior to others, to 'appear' to be a winner.

       It is actually very dangerous to excuse harmful selfishness as 'what all humans do and that cannot be corrected'. It is similarly harmful to compromise increased awareness and better understanding just to 'get along with people' who selfishly are not interested in being more aware and better understanding how to be helpful to the advancement of humanity through truly sustainable development.

       Openly identifying and admitting the real problem is required to obtain a viable solution. That is the fundamental of Engineering and Business Management and Politics, and everything. Compromising what is understood to be required or corrected, for any excuse, will not develop a Good Result.

13961. John S at 00:54 AM on 1 August 2018
       America spends over $20bn per year on fossil fuel subsidies. Abolish them
       

       The International Monetary Fund has a working paper accessible via https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2016/12/31/How-Large-Are-Global-Energy-Subsidies-42940 that estimates total world subsidies to fossil industries (including external costs) to have been for

       2011—$4.2 trillion (5.8 percent of global GDP)

       2013 - $4.9 trillion (6.5 percent of global GDP)

       2015 - $5.3 trillion (6.5 percent of global GDP) 

       Externalities were about 80% and about 75% of externalities were not climate change, suggesting their impact would be local and self-interested countries should mitigate regadless of climate change.

       And I'm SWAG-ing (scientific wild-ass guessing) that future climate change damages could be far more than historical depending on the extent to which we mitigate and with uncertainty (per Weitzman's "fat-tail") that effectively makes them practically "priceless".  

        

       Moderator Response:

       [PS] Fixed link. In future please create the link yourself using the link button in the comment editor.

13962. One Planet Only Forever at 00:33 AM on 1 August 2018
       America spends over $20bn per year on fossil fuel subsidies. Abolish them
       

       Discussing the ongoing debate and argument about 'how much added cost' should be applied to fossil fuels needs to include a clear statement that the actual required added cost is the amount of added cost (or other actions) that will produce the required rapid termination of the global fossil fuel industry.

       Fossil fuel burning is not like tobacco. Tobacco users only harm themselves, where public smoking is limited by laws. And the tax on tobacco can be sort of figured out to cover public health care costs for those people. The people benefiting from fossil fuel burning are not suffering the negative consequences.

       Fossil fuel burning is like speeding or armed robbery. The harm and risk to harm to others requires penalties and enforcement that effectively limit the amount of the riskier more damaging activity.

       Debating a Carbon Tax with people who do not care to be corrected, because being correct is contrary to their developed personal interest, has gone the way it would be expected to:

       • The first step is actually their denial that what has developed is unacceptable. Instead of admitting that penalties are required to stop the unacceptable behaviour, they want to debate how much the unacceptable activity that needs to be rapidly curtailed 'should cost' (while never intending to agree to any added cost, just using the debate as a delay tactic and propaganda tool based on 'attempts to increase the cost' to drum up unjustified support for nothing being done).
       • Then the debate over the cost becomes an argument about the discount rate to be applied (which moves even further from the reality that the activity is simply unsustainable and harmful and must be stopped). They push for a higher discount rate to reduce the 'corrective cost' to be applied.
       • And they apply that higher discount rate to an understated evaluation of future harm done.
       • All of this diminishes the amount or degree of corrective action, and delays it being implemented.
       • Then they claim the small added cost will do nothing meaningful or helpful - and they are correct because doing nothing meaningful is their end game (because meaningful helpful actions are detrimental to their developed desires and interests).

       Democracy and free markets only produce good results when they are governed or limited by Good Helpful Altruistic Reasoning (same goes for communism, any other -ism, or any religion). As John Stuart Mill warned in “On Liberty”: “If society lets a considerable number of its members grow up mere children, incapable of being acted on by rational consideration of distant motives, society has itself to blame for the consequences.”

       Humanity needs Good Reason to govern what humans do. Everybody can understand that (even the people who are determined to resist admitting it). And this is nothing new. Greeks were writing about it thousands of years ago.

13963. SirCharles at 00:12 AM on 1 August 2018
       Facebook video spreads climate denial misinformation to 5 million users
       

       Is building a Facebook alternative worth the effort? MeWe thinks so

13964. SirCharles at 00:06 AM on 1 August 2018
       Facebook video spreads climate denial misinformation to 5 million users
       

       There's one study missing concerning the scientific consensus on climate change:

       

       => The Consensus on Anthropogenic Global Warming Matters

13965. scaddenp at 15:14 PM on 31 July 2018
       Comprehensive study: carbon taxes won't hamper the economy
       

       "Humanity needs Good Reason to govern what humans do"

       But it wont happen because people dont use reason and no amount of demanding that they do will change that. If you want effective change then you have to work real human nature not an ideal.

       Your own statements really acknowledge this eg.

       "But they are rarely willing to admit the need to achieve all of them, and the sooner the better, for the benefit of the future of humanity."

       Correct - the moment you hit the "how to", you hit political values. And, if you assume people wont because they are greedy and selfish, then you will end alienating them not persuading them. Political values run far deeper than that.

       "there is no real opportunity to reason with the new-age fascists "

       Again, of course not. Tribal identity (or less politely, racism), loyalty to that and belief in structured heirachies underpinned by authority underly fascism. You wont get far with reason.

13966. One Planet Only Forever at 14:24 PM on 31 July 2018
       Comprehensive study: carbon taxes won't hamper the economy
       

       scaddenp,
       I try to focus on Good Reasoning being the required basis for human actions for Good Reason (and I am open to personally developing improved Good Reason).

       This comment will get to Antifa and eco-terrorists, but is mainly about my understanding of the opposition to accepting climate science and the required corrections it has identified.

       My experience is that some people will claim to like the idea of one or many of the SDGs (which include climate action). But they are rarely willing to admit the need to achieve all of them, and the sooner the better, for the benefit of the future of humanity. And they often balk at getting into a reasoned discussion of the corrections of what has developed that are required to actually achieve the SDGs (including the need to un-concentrate wealth and power). They like their developed, but unjustifiable, perceptions of prosperity, opportunity and superiority (they can only rationalize, unjustifiably excuse, their primitive selfish interests). They do not want to understand that their perceptions are unsustainable, undeserved, in need of correction.

       History is full of the bad results that develop when wealth and power get to be concentrated to undeserving people. It is a down-ward spiral that can only be limited by people insisting on Good Reason governing what is done, correcting unsustainable and damaging developments that do not deserve to be popular and profitable.

       When excuse-making for primitive selfishness is not governed or corrected by altruistic Good Reasoning, regional temporary winning can develop that is detrimental to the future of humanity like: the USA backing out of Kyoto and the Paris Agreement, the invasion of Iraq, Alberta pushing to increase the rate of extraction of oil sands bitumen for burning, new-age fascism, religious fundamentalism, and other unjustifiable dogmas excusing demagogues (Read Al Gore's "The Aussalt on Reason").

       Fossil fuel burning is an unsustainable and harmful human development that needs to be corrected. And it does not matter how the need for correction is presented, it will not be liked by people who have developed a taste for the unjustified prosperity, opportunity or superiority that has to be corrected.

       And almost all of the other SDGs require 'a degree of correction of what has developed', not just climate action. Most of them require un-concentration of wealth and power (they require effective political and economic democracy by an aware and altruistic population).

       Debating a Carbon Tax with people who do not care to be corrected has gone the way I expected it would. The first step is actually their denial that what has developed is unacceptable. Instead of admitting that penalties are required to stop the unacceptable behaviour, they want to debate how much the unacceptable activity that needs to be rapidly curtailed 'should cost' (while never intending to agree to any added cost, just using the debate as a delay tactic and propaganda tool to drum up unjustified support). Then the debate over the cost becomes an argument about the discount rate to be applied (which moves even further from the reality that the activity is simply unsustainable and harmful and must be stopped). They push for a higher discount rate to reduce the 'corrective cost' to be applied . And they apply that higher discount rate to an understated evaluation of future harm done. All of this diminishes the corrective action. Then they claim the small added cost will do nothing meaningful or helpful - and they are correct because doing nothing meaningful is their end game (because meaningful helpful actions are detrimental to their developed desires and interests).

       The new-age fascists require distractions, like debating Carbon Taxes, because the Good Reasoned reality is that it is incorrect to limit the evaluation of action on carbon to financial evaluations that try to compare current day lost opportunity or costs to future harms created (some of those evaluations are even used to excuse not doing any correction of the undeniably incorrect and unsustainable developed human activity).

       The reality is that the burning of fossil fuels is an unsustainable and damaging development that needs to be rapidly curtailed to limit the negative impacts imposed on future generations. The Good Reason reality is that there should be no 'protection' for the incorrectly developed perceptions of prosperity, superiority or opportunity. Unjustified concentration of wealth and power needs to be corrected.

       That is the Good Reason basis for discussing Antifa and what is referred to as eco-terrorism. The new age fascists attack every attempt to confront, correct and constrain them. And terrorism is one of their favourite attack terms, as is national security, and declaring that their opposition is Evil (on Satan's side).

       New age fascism is a re-emerging threat to the future of humanity. It needs to be confronted and corrected. Antifa attempts to do that by raising public awareness. Of course any aggressive in the moment passionate actions by the Antifa supporters can easily become new-age fascist propaganda (but they would make it up even if it didn't happen).

       Regrettably, there is no real opportunity to reason with the new-age fascists (the House Freedom Caucus members rarely debate issues in Congress - like the lack of debate that preceded the Invasion of Iraq). They have rationalized poor excuses for what they want. They have rationalized their unjustifiable selfish primitive beliefs and are not willing to use the more human part of their brain to develop Good Reason, learning how to be helpful rather than harmful. The new-age fascists aggressively attack and demonize anyone who tries to confront and correct them (and they do need to be corrected).

       The new-age fascists also like to get away with unacceptable economic pursuits (the 1987 UN Report “Our Common Future” included the chillingly accurate declaration that leaders do what they do because they can get away with it). They will resist being corrected regarding the social and ecological harm done by their unsustainable pursuits of personal benefit. And when they can concentrate wealth and power, like they have done in Alberta, they can 'legally' do all kinds of unjustified things like pushing to increase the rate of extraction of oil sands for burning.

       I am open to better understanding ways to confront and correct the new-age fascists among the Unite the Right collectives of greedier and less tolerant people. But I already have a robust understanding that it is futile to attempt to negotiate a compromise of Good Reason in the hopes of 'getting along with them'. I frankly do not expect them to ever be satisfied (and their actions in pursuit of wealth and power any way they can get away with are proof that I am correct). And my experience to date has confirmed that some Conservatives can understand that they have to 'not vote for' the United Right Conservative Option that may be the only conservative option left in their political system (In Canada the Uniting of the Right eliminated conservative alternatives to try to get people who consider themselves to be conservative to support the new-age fascists/evangelical fundamentalists, and it tragically works).

       A similar Unite the Right new-age fascist group (partnered with fundamentalist evangelicals) are in power in the USA at the moment. And almost all of their actions have been detrimental to achieving the SDGs, especially climate action.

       Pushing for people to learn to have Good Reasons for their actions (particularly for their economic and political choices) is the best way I can see to try to correct the resurgence of rationalized excuses for supporting new-age fascism (concentration of wealth and power). It will also result in more aggressive and effective corrective climate action.

       Democracy and free markets only produce good results when they are governed or limited by Good Reason (same goes for communism, any other -ism, or any religion). As John Stuart Mill warned in “On Liberty”: “If society lets a considerable number of its members grow up mere children, incapable of being acted on by rational consideration of distant motives, society has itself to blame for the consequences.”

       Humanity needs Good Reason to govern what humans do. Everybody can understand that (even the people who are determined to resist admitting it).

13967. scaddenp at 07:31 AM on 31 July 2018
       Comprehensive study: carbon taxes won't hamper the economy
       

       Antifa and ecoterrorism are extreme examples of people talking past each other - thinking that somehow people will be persuaded by your point of view by engaging in activities that they would automatically label as "bad".

       If you present the SDG to people, I am pretty sure that most would agree wholeheartedly. You say that way to achieve that is say a carbon tax and people would instantly split on party lines. Arguing for reason is mostly futile in my opinion. Most people, most of the time do not use reason (including me). They will rationalize (slightly different) from a gut judgement based deep within their value system. If you present something to them in a way where their reaction is governed from a tribal position, then that is all you will get. Moving forward means finding ways to avoid this so that reason is in fact engaged. "Tax" and "fine" both provoke a gut reaction. Emphasize the "trading" in ETS and you have more hope. Yelling at conservatives about harm and fairness when their mind is made up from other considerations doesnt help. It simply identifies you as belonging to the other tribe who arguments should be ignored - because you belong to the other tribe.

13968. Sunspot at 06:42 AM on 31 July 2018
       America spends over $20bn per year on fossil fuel subsidies. Abolish them
       

       Including Federal and State subsidies, the total is just about the same as NASA's annual budget. A year of Space Exploration as opposed to hand-outs to the fossil fuels industry. I know which I choose as my tax money well spent!

13969. nigelj at 06:25 AM on 31 July 2018
       America spends over $20bn per year on fossil fuel subsidies. Abolish them
       

       The GOP claims to be the low tax party, yet has to effectively keep taxes higher then otherwise required for unjustifiable fossil fuel subsidides. It's an exercise in hypocrisy, out of control campaign financing rules, and crony capitalism. The Democrats are not much better.

13970. jef12506 at 04:00 AM on 31 July 2018
       America spends over $20bn per year on fossil fuel subsidies. Abolish them
       

       Virtually every aspect of consumer capitalism is subsidised and generates a massive waste stream that is destroying the entire biosphere.

       The entire developing world is doing everything possible to reach higher levels of consumer capitalism increasing the waste stream along with them.

       We need to provide alternatives for people trying to claw their way out of a miserable existance.

13971. ilfark2 at 02:33 AM on 31 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       Considering Alley's work on abrupt climate change and the latest Siberian Traps research, global warming should be considered and immediate existential threat.

       As such, either keep a quasi market system (like WWII mobilization, but hopefully more equitable) or create a rational society that uses less energy, produces more free time and ensures we don't have this issue in the future (as very likely any market 'solution' would insure since markets have always tended to expand)...

       examples of rational societies are Paris Commune (worked well until French allied with German Capitalists to crush it), Catalonia for a few years (until Capitalists crushed it) and Rojova (in process of being crushed by Capitalists)... we know how to have a higher standard of living, using much less energy.

       In the US, the vast majority of people pumps tons of carbon to drive in a big circle to an activity that does not need to happen (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate); couple that with Graeber's bullshit jobs and we've a whole lot of folk that can help others do real (material) work. If automate most of this and localize production (Bookchin, et. al.), we could all have much better lives and save this set of evolution's species (what's left of them anyway).

       We could do this in a democratic way (as in Catolonia).

       Of course, I'm not too hopeful, considering folk on this very site talk about market incentives that might have worked, had they been implented at the turn of the 20th century (and yes folk knew about global warming even then... see Tyndall and others around that time).

        

       We might have 10 or fewer years to get to 0 emissions. Even the overly optimistic Paris Accord depend on carbon extraction that as of now we're not sure will work.

       So, yes, using markets, hoping for new technology, might work, but it doesn't seem worth the risk, considering possible scenarios.

       Notice also the recent study on the AMOC slowing and speeding up in a natural cycle, which of course means two things. It's going to get hotter in the next few years and we get to see if the paper's contention is true or if the extra heat in the newly claimed altantic (from the arctic) ocean will offset the mechanism from the past (the paper contends that in the past, more melting led to a slowdown which led to less tropical water delivered, which reset the cycle... of course that was before all the extra heat we've beening allowing our emissions to trap)

13972. SparkyVA at 22:52 PM on 30 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #30
       

       I thought the word "Skeptical" meant something. Guess not. This site seems to have been taken over by people who broght you global cooling in the '70s and 80s and now bring you global warming today. Please tell me, where are the real scientists that aren't in it for the money and government substities? You cannot explain the past variations in climate by current theories of MMGW, but youo can make tons of money. Like Diagonies, I am still looking for the honest website.

       Moderator Response:

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13973. One Planet Only Forever at 15:05 PM on 30 July 2018
       Comprehensive study: carbon taxes won't hamper the economy
       

       scaddenp - The leap of faith from what I am pursuing to claims that my thinking is aligned with the likes of Antifa or Ecoterrorism is exactly the type of lack of Good Reason I argue against. The Sustainable Developments Goals and Good Reason are the basis for my pursuits.

       However, I agree that the leap of faith view you presented would be a 'go to way of thinking' for the people I identify as needing to change how they think, people I would talk past for the benefit of bystanding observers.

       Good Reason can be the basis for the thoughts and actions of everyone, all -isms, even Egoism (though Good Reason would lead to the need to abandon many of Egoisms dogmas).

       However, as an example, people who claim they want to help the poor by personally being able to benefit from burning fossil fuels are making up a lot of non-sense, poor excuses, unjustified by good reason.

13974. Mal Adapted at 12:17 PM on 30 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       Daniel Mocsny:

       As long as people remain immoral enough to actually enjoy doing all the things that account for their personal carbon footprints that remain 5, 10, 20 or more times higher than the carbon fair share, we absolutely remain on pace to burn all the world's economically extractable fossil fuels.

       I'm sorry, but this ignores economic reality while putting all hope for decarbonization on aspirational morality.  Like other commenters, I don't think voluntary personal sacrifice should be discouraged, and it may reduce carbon emissions noticeably.  It won't cap AGW on its own, however, because AGW is a Drama of the Commons.  It's a result of the individual pursuit of happiness, or of sheer survival, agreggated over all individuals in the global economy. Yet we're already paying for climate change in money and tragedy, in the the US as well as globally. If we're not directly affected by a record-breaking weather disaster, our taxes, donations and sympathy go to victims at home or abroad. Nevertheless, while SkepticalScience commenters may voluntarily pay more for carbon-neutral energy ourselves and exhort others to do the same, the bulk of the US and the world's consumers will buy fossil carbon until alternatives are able to compete on price. 

       Because the free market (free, that is, of collective intervention in private transactions) for energy externalizes, i.e socializes, the marginal climate-change costs of each fossil-fuel transaction, FFs enjoy a potent price advantage over alternatives. What's needed is collective (i.e. government) intervention in the 'free' market, to re-internalize a portion of the climate-change cost of FFs in their price 'at the pump', thereby reducing emissions immediately to the extent ernergy demand is price-sensitive, and nudging the 'invisible hand' of the market to drive build-out of the carbon-neutral economy rapidly and at the lowest social cost. I specifically favor a revenue-neutral national Carbon Fee and Dividend with Border Adjustment Tariff. The US economy is the 2nd largest producer of CO2, and our collective national choices at the polls can result in both a disproportionate reduction in emissions, and regain some of the technological and industrial leadership we once possessed. Please see citizensclimatelobby.org/basics-carbon-fee-dividend for details.

       Of course, before anything like CF&D with BAT can be enacted, we first have to tip a few key legislative elections in favor of the candidate who is more realistic, or less in denial, about AGW. It will typically be a choice of the lesser of two weevils. Then we have to lobby our newly-rational legislators to move toward an effective national decarbonization policy. Piece of cake? No, but IMHO well within the realm of probability over the next 15 years or so. The alternative is frightening to contemplate.

13975. michael sweet at 07:23 AM on 30 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       This Climate Central article from 2015 documents the striking increase in fires in the USA.  Since then fires have increased substantially.

       I remember reading a peer reviewed article (sorry no cite) several years ago that looked at fires in remote areaas of the American West where no fire control had ever taken place.  There was a substantial increase in fires recently from the historical average.  This showed that more fires is not due to fire control measures that have been in place for the past 100 years in the USA, although fire control may affect individual fires.

13976. scaddenp at 07:21 AM on 30 July 2018
       Comprehensive study: carbon taxes won't hamper the economy
       

       OPF - all true maybe but if your chosen path to the future, particularly in a democracy, depends on changing peoples core value system, especially polical values, then well, good luck. Not a lot of evidence for this being possible without major trauma. With few exceptions, people of all sides really do want a better future, do care somewhat about fairness and the welfare of their fellow man. They also care about a quite a no. of other things as well and ignoring that will not create a conversation that leads to meaningful action. I think Antifa, from what I have seen in media, is a absolute gift to far right. Simialarly ecoterrorism is about as counterproductive to ecological action as you can get. The participants feel self-righteous warriors for the good cause while damaging any possibility of a concensus with conservatives.

13977. nigelj at 06:49 AM on 30 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       Daniel Mocsny,

       I also think personal initiative in reducing carbon footprints is very important, although I think the term ethics might be more appropriate in this case. We cannot expect and wait for the government to fix every aspect of the climate problem for us. The problem is fundamentally a consumption problem, and we have to consume less fossil fuels and carbon intensive products.

       However we cannot expect people to do this if there aren't viable alternatives such as renewable electricity generation, electic cars,  and alternatives to high use of cement etc. Governments have a role to play in terms of renewable electricity generation and some related issues, because in some countries they own these systems, and in others we need government incentives to help develop this energy source. Of course this requires voters make good moral (or ethical) voting choices to parties that have the strongest positions on reducing emissions.

       I also don't see how you conclude renewable electricy would take a very long time to develop. Society could convert quite rapidly to renewable energy if it wanted, in a practical sense. I don't have time for a lengthy comment, but I suggest look at the massive economic transformation that happened during WW2 in just 5 years, and look at the costs of changing over to renewable electricity generation, which are calculated to be only 1% of a countries economic output per year spread over 30 years. On this basis I think its certainly possible to at least largely transform the transport and home heating sectors etcetera to renewable electricity by 2050, the Paris Accord timeframe, and without huge economic sacrifices or problems. It is more of a political problem than a practical problem. You are right about the power of lobby groups, but they cannot withstand strong popular support for climate policies.

       There is also a role for carbon tax and dividend schemes. Please appreciate no individual wants to make ethical choices unless they sense other people are prepared to do the same, because they will feel their own choices would have no significant effect unless everyone does the same. This dead lock situation can be broken with carbon taxes that put some pressure on everyone that few will be able to ignore.

       The economist.com July 28th edition has just published an article called "Sin Taxes" related to tobacco, alcohol and sugar and looked at the historical evidence and found them to be very effective at reducing use of these products, so carbon taxes are based on sound precedent. However it requires popular public support and understanding of why such taxes make sense, and how a tax and dividend scheme returns the money to consumers and is therefore not harsh on consumers and keeps the tax revenue separate from general government income.

13978. nigelj at 06:02 AM on 30 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #30
       

       Related material : "A rapid assessment by scientists of the ongoing heatwave across northern Europe this summer has found that human-caused climate change made it as much as five times more likely to have occurred."

13979. michael sweet at 03:07 AM on 30 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       Daniel Mocsny:

       I think you are incorrect.  If renewable energy is substituted for fossil fuel for all electricity than CO2 release can be contained.  If we converted all heating and transportation to electricity (except airplanes) than we would be well on the way to a completely renewable society.  The remaining power could be from electrofuels.

       In order to have this renewable future we need politicians to make it profitable to switch to renewable and away from fossil fuels.  Most people cannot switch to completely renewable energy on their own. 

       A carbon fee would get society started.

13980. Daniel Mocsny at 02:43 AM on 30 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       #3. michael sweet at 07:23 AM on 29 July, 2018
       

       Perhaps as more houses lose their value from sea level rise politicians will start to notice.

       
       It would be nice if politicians were to notice, but politicians do not control the fate of the climate - individual consumers do. Greenhouse gas emissions cannot be curtailed without curtailing the behaviors that emit greenhouse gases. In the very long term, perhaps technological substitution can reduce the emissions from a high-energy lifestyle, but we don't have the long term. We need to slash emissions yesterday.

       A politician can notice coastal flooding all day long, but that won't enable him or her to impose carbon rationing on individuals who refuse to ration their own carbon. Any politician who attempts real action on the climate will just get voted out by voters who refuse to take real action on their own contributions to climate change.

13981. Daniel Mocsny at 02:36 AM on 30 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       #6 billev at 10:21 AM on 29 July, 2018

       U.S. history records many large forest fires throughout the 19th and 20th centuries.

       
       Of course, but you are sampling from a long period of time (centuries) to find exceptional events, which you then compare to exceptional events from a much shorter period of time (the last few years).

       This is like comparing the heights of men in a professional basketball team to the heights of men in the general population. If you search through billions of men, you will find a few exceptionally tall ones. If we were to apply your reasoning about forest fires, we might erroneously conclude there is nothing unusual about the heights of basketball players.

       The name for what you are doing is: selection bias.

       It's hard for a basketball team of just 12 men to have taller individuals than the general population of billions. But that ignores what is special about the basketball team: its extraordinary concentration of tall men.

       To conclude nothing has changed weather-wise since the 19th and 20th centuries, you'd need to wait for the 21st and 22nd centuries to play out so you could compare equal spans of time. But we only have a small sample of the 21st century so far. And so far that brief span looks unusual compared to most of the similar spans within the last two centuries. What's more, climate scientists have a well-developed theory to account for what is different, giving us good reason to believe we're not just seeing an anomaly, but part of an ominous trend.

13982. Daniel Mocsny at 02:25 AM on 30 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       Those worst-case scenarios are still quite unlikely, since they require both that we do nothing to alter our emissions path, which is still arcing upward, [...]

       And the first step in "altering our emissions path" would be to start speaking about it plainly and directly, instead of using stilted distancing language constructed specifically to obfuscate reality and reinforce inaction. "Emissions path" is a euphemism to distract people from the behavior changes necessary for a sustainable civilization. If we can't even speak honestly about what a low-carbon lifestyle looks like, how can we adopt one?

       The only "action" that matters for reducing emissions is behavior change by individuals. Namely, individuals must become moral. Morality is the force that takes the fun out of behaviors that are otherwise enjoyable to the actor but inflict harm on other people, other species, and the shared environment. A moral person may be forced through circumstances to inflict harm on others, but a moral person cannot enjoy doing inflicting harm, and will constantly look for ways to defeat those circumstances. Neither does a moral person use the kind of stilted distancing language which has become standard in the climate change community to deny personal responsibility for causing climate change.

       As long as people remain immoral enough to actually enjoy doing all the things that account for their personal carbon footprints that remain 5, 10, 20 or more times higher than the carbon fair share, we absolutely remain on pace to burn all the world's economically extractable fossil fuels.

       To see what has to stop or scale back by at least 90%, we need only look at where the bulk of a typical modern household's greenhouse gas emissions come from: driving, flying, heating, cooling, eating meat, owning meat-eating pets, and proceating. There are thousands more sources of emissions, but each person's focus needs to be on the largest sources of his or her emissions, not on some abstract world of huge numbers and other people and nations beyond his or her control. Until we control what we can control, how will we control what other people control?

       As long as people lack the moral development to stop them from experiencing pleasure when they rape the climate - for example, by flying on holiday - then they will continue to rape the climate and enjoy doing it. No amount of policy tinkering can substitute for morality, thanks to the iron laws of economics. As long as people are willing to spend money to buy things they enjoy, their money concentrates into the hands of whoever can give them what they want. The money then buys politicians, churns out disinformation, or whatever else is necessary to continue meeting the demand for climate-raping goods and services. The election of Trump shows the folly of imagining policy can substitute for individual morality.

       In contrast, a moral person cannot be lobbied. A moral person does not have to worry about getting re-elected. A moral person cannot be bought. He or she does what is right because it is right. For civilization to survive, it needs the vast majority of its constituent citizens to become moral.

13983. sailrick at 16:19 PM on 29 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       Billev
       
        Fire season in much of Western U.S. has increased by two months since 1970.
        In California it has increased by 70 days.

13984. One Planet Only Forever at 14:30 PM on 29 July 2018
       Facebook video spreads climate denial misinformation to 5 million users
       

       Al Gore's "The Assault on Reason" is a detailed presentation of what has been happening in the USA.

       Essentially, the acquisition of wealth or power is becoming less constrained by good reason. And wealth has been getting an increased ability to purchase power.

       People are more easily moved by appeals to selfish fears than by appeals to be more caring altruists. They believe simple claims from demagogues rather than determining if the claim is made for good reason. The Sustainable Development Goals are a compendium of Good Reason.

       Climate science presents a threat to unjustified wealthy and powerful people. And those unjustified rich and powerful people can easily get support from people who sense that they would personally lose their currently developed perceptions of prosperity and opportunity if burning of fossil fuels was limited or made to be more expensive.

13985. One Planet Only Forever at 13:30 PM on 29 July 2018
       Comprehensive study: carbon taxes won't hamper the economy
       

       nigelj and scaddenp,

       The basis for my position is the need for good reason to limit or govern what is done.

       I admit that such a position will never connect with someone who will allow personal unjustified beliefs to overpower their inherent ability to understand good reason and the importance of limiting what people do based on good reason.

       Democracy can only develop sustainable good results if it is limited or governed by good reason. The same goes for capitalism or any other system, including communism.

       Al Gore's book "The Assault on Reason" is a very comprehensive presentation of what is going on in the USA. It includes the observation that concentration of wealth and power has repeatedly developed damaging results.

       The problem is people abandoning the responsibility to learn and reason, choosing instead to idolize the simplistic appealing claims of demagogues offering prosperity and protection in exchange for more power for leaders to do unreasonable things, things they cannot reasonably justify.

       I consider it to be necessary to change the way that unreasonable people think about things before attempting to help them by use of good reason. Without changing how they think they will do what elected Republicans have done 'remained dogmatically immoveable'.

       That means talking past a person who claims to be a conservative but who is actually an unreasoning faithful fan of dogma with no interest in developing good reasoning as the basis for what they consider to be just and fair.

13986. scaddenp at 13:24 PM on 29 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       Right, and the establishment of fire servise and massive increase in their fire fighting capability could not be relevant? Of course you could look at some peer reviewed research. I dare you. 

13987. michael sweet at 11:44 AM on 29 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       Billev,

       Yes there have been fires in the past.  It also has rained in the past.  Records conclusively prove that the area burned in the past decade is much greater than it was in any past decade.  The increase in fires is caused by climate change.

       I note that you have provided no links to support your wild claim that past fires compare to current fires.  That is because current fires are much greater in extent than any past fires and you cannot find any citation that support your claims.

13988. billev at 10:21 AM on 29 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       U.S. history records many large forest fires throughout the 19th and 20th  centuries.  Link to forest fires of the 1930's and you will be led to descriptions of many large fires throughout this country over the years.

13989. Sunspot at 08:54 AM on 29 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       nigelj - I certainly don't disagree, but I'm sure anytime the local news or weather even barely mentions Global Warming, they get bombarded by the deniers. And given the number of death threats Climate Scientists receive, I can't blame them for dancing around the subject. People like you and me have to just keep speaking the truth. Unfortunately, as things deteriorate, we will be heard more.

13990. michael sweet at 07:49 AM on 29 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #29
       

       JimKirk,

       Apparently I was mistaken about the heat waves and British concern about food.  This article in the Guardian discusses both the drought affecting food yields and Brexit affecting food supply. 

       Other sources say that Russian wheat is suffering.  We will have to wait a few weeks to find out how food yields across the world have been affected by the heat waves.

13991. nigelj at 07:44 AM on 29 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       The media have done a bad job, by not reporting well enough on climate issues and connections between heatwaves and climate change.

       Heatwaves have already become more frequent. The media could at least have mentioned this, while awaiting expert opinion on this specific northern hemisphere heatwave.

       Imho there may well be a non linear sort of response where heatwave problems could accelerate if we do nothing. There are many examples of abrupt change in the past climate record.

13992. michael sweet at 07:23 AM on 29 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       Anecdotal story:

       I live in Tampa, Florida.  Some of the city is very low lying (less than 3 meters or 10 feet) but most is higher than 20 feet.  My son wants to buy a starter house.  We went to look at one that was a nice, small house and the neighborhood looked OK.   It was priced about $40,000 below comparable houses he had looked at. 

       Then I noticed that there were mangroves at the end of the street and the house was much less than 10 feet above sea level.  The neighbors across the street had recently raised their septic system, which means their old system flooded from sea level rise.

       I think the price of the house was lowered because of the flood risk.  We did not bother to find out what flood insurance would cost but the newspaper says it is a lot.

       Last summer I was in the Chesapeake Bay and in a neighborhood near where I stayed the houses were unsellable due to sea level rise.

       Perhaps as more houses lose their value from sea level rise politicians will start to notice.

13993. Sunspot at 05:07 AM on 29 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       Two new things I just ran across: The Russian wheat crop might fail again, along with crop failures in other countries. And fresh water sources are warmer than normal, which limits their cooling ability for nuclear power plants. It's all connected...

13994. Philippe Chantreau at 03:13 AM on 29 July 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #30
       

       I'd like to add to that list the severe thunderstorms that happened at the end of the spring in France, flooding multiple regions. France has been experiencing exactly the alternance of drought and flood that was predicted by multiple studies as a resut of the warming climate. 

       I think this is a very valuable article. We had countless discussions on this site recently with a former lawyer going by the handle of NorrisM and one pivotal argument of his was that causing economic transformations of any kind for climate risks was unjustifiable because these risks were possibilities that could materialize in the future, or not, with unclear probabilites and unclear severity. This already was disonest at thie time, but now has become a completely obsolete line of argument.

       Climate change is happening now, its predicted manifestations are happening all over the world, including the rather catastrophic types. Arguing that we can't launch any significant action because potential problems are diluted in an uncertain future is downright stupid. 

       But the Japanese floods and heat waves carry little weight in the public minds compare to Meghan Markle lates dress or other distractions. We'll eventually get what we deserve, and earn, as a species.

13995. shoyemore at 07:57 AM on 28 July 2018
       Wind Energy: What About Those Subsidies?
       

       Funny ... read a few books on the Oak Island mystery when I was a kid & retained a lifetime's curiousity. Sometime before 1800, somone dug elaborate tunnels on Oak Island, Nova Scotia, with passages connected to the sea, possibly to hide pirate treasure (one theory). Generations of explorers have ripped up and added new layers of confusion to the whole elaborate network. Lovers of a mystery will love Oak Island.

       The Laginas (Marty and Rick) returned to the island a few years ago, as the latest generation of explorers. Cannily they made their exploration a Reality TV show, so their research and drilling at least partially pays for itself. The show is watchable & (I think) fun, with a lot of red herrings and cliffhangers (some fake, imho). Personally, their favoured theory of a treasure buried by pre-Columbian Templars is wacko (again, imho).

       In the UK, there are repeats on Sky, and I believe a new series in the offing, the 6th. The Laginas, by the way, come across as pretty hard-headed and practical, not starry eyed romantics.

       Just enjoy suddenly finding out Marty Lagina is a renewable energy guy. I had wondered where he made his money.

13996. nigelj at 07:55 AM on 28 July 2018
       Wind Energy: What About Those Subsidies?
       

       Lachlan @14, I believe in subsides in general principle, but you have to be careful that you dont get political conyism to buy votes, tax payer funds are limited, and its impossible for countries to be self sufficient in everything, and you don't want to distort free markets and free trade excessively. So subsides need to be limited to things that really make sense, and mostly have time limits applied. 

       I'm not sure Australias car industry makes sense because Australia is just too small to maintain a viable car industry. Poor countries subsidising food doesn't make much sense for example, and it would be better just to give people financial assistance. Subsidising millionaire farmers doesn't make much sense and is cronyism.

       Subsidising renewable energy development makes sense, to help get it established. Subsidising new pharmaceutical drugs makes sense, as industry is reluctant to develop drugs for rare conditions and to develop new antibiotics.

       I'm a free trade advocate, But I do agree about the problems of relying on imported energy. Opec has been an ongoing headache, so renewable energy would free us from this although please note countries in Europe already trade in renewable energy surpluses!

       And nobody would want to be reliant on imported water for example. And some economic diversity is a good thing, so that countries aren't reliant totally on exporting just a couple of products.

13997. nigelj at 06:23 AM on 28 July 2018
       Upcoming webinars on turning misinformation into an educational opportunity
       

       Thank's for doing this work. I don't know how much impact it will have on the climate issue, hopefully as much as possible, but the general principles of recognising logical fallacies, logical reasoning, and identifying reliable evidence are applicable to analysing any field of knowledge or current affairs issue, and are such an important way of understanding whether somebodies claims are valid  or not. It also helps us identify our own biases.

       The sooner young people are given a good grounding in this the better, especially in the age of the internet with its alternative facts and conspiracy theories. It should all be compulsory in schools, up there with equal importance with the core basic subjects.

13998. ubrew12 at 03:33 AM on 28 July 2018
       Facebook video spreads climate denial misinformation to 5 million users
       

       The internet has been really useful in getting some truths, like how to get the water out of your headlights and seal the seams again:  Just 'youtube' it.  At the same time, its become filled with misinformation about less personal, general interest topics, like climate change, where the moneyed-interests are free to broadcast their lies.  As SkS repeats, if you don't innoculate people against these viral lies, they catch the disease and its difficult to dislodge.  Commerce is global.  The internet is global.  Some kind of global governmental watchdog is needed to counter these diseases.  I know that sounds like 'one world government', but in the absence of global regulation, we have unregulated global capitalism.  This is a place where a gangster like Vladimir Putin can realistically expand his vision from ripping off mere Russia, to ripping off the whole world.

13999. Lloyd Flack at 00:03 AM on 28 July 2018
       Facebook video spreads climate denial misinformation to 5 million users
       

       Morano gives me the impression that a major part of his motivation is the thrill of conflict and the pleasure of thinking he has ut down an adversary.

       If I am right then he cannot admit that he is wrong and there is an element of bad faith in all his arguments.

       Now I think most of us know there is little chance of getting an ideologue to understand. You have to make your aguments for the benefit of bystanders who are willing to try to understand.

       But how do you deal with someone like Morano who is probably in part doing it for kicks? How do you make this behaviour recognizable to bystanders?

14000. Lachlan at 16:59 PM on 27 July 2018
       Wind Energy: What About Those Subsidies?
       

       nigelj @12, the Australian car industry was subsidised and not competitive, but only in the way that the army is subsidised and not competitive.  Having a manufacturing capability is an important part of any country's national security, and especialy an isolated island nation's.

       Similarly, freeing ourselves from imported fossil fuels should be seen as just as worthy of subsidy as maintaining the military is.  Russia has a strong hold over Europe because they buy its gas.  The Middle East has a strong hold over US policy because of oil.

       Until we are energy-independent, we should subsidise the shift to a sustainable electrified economy.  That may or may not involve subsidising wind directly, but certainly will involve subsidising energy storage, which is an indirect subsidy to wind.

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